Fred Moskowitz 0:00
But we’re buying notes on the secondary market notes that were already originated by someone else. And what happens is they’re sold at a discount. So we buy notes that exist already either they were originated by a traditional lender or a bank or an institution and then they’re sold on the secondary market. Now back to your back to your which is different than being the originator of the loan originator of commercial, a commercial loan commercial projects.
Welcome to CRE PN Radio for influential commercial real estate professionals who work with investors, buyers and sellers of commercial real estate coast to coast whether you’re an investor, broker, lender, property manager, attorney or accountant we are here to learn from the experts.
J Darrin Gross 0:56
Welcome to commercial real estate pro networks, CRE PN Radio. Thanks for joining us. My name is J. Darrin Gross. This is the podcast focused on commercial real estate investment and risk management strategies. Weekly we have conversations with commercial real estate investors and professionals who provide their experience and insight to help you grow your real estate portfolio.
Today’s program is sponsored by Building Insurance and Risk. When you invest in real estate. It pays to work with a real estate investor protection specialists to protect yourself and your investment from catastrophic loss. The experts at building insurance and risk focus on real estate investor protection. They provide you with multiple insurance coverage offers and a side by side coverage comparison. To learn more, go to BuildingInsuranceRisk.com.
Today, my guest is Fred Moscowitz. Fred is an educator and best selling author who has trained countless investors from all walks of life on how to create passive income streams on their own. As a fund manager Fred manages a mortgage note Investment Fund, and is considered an industry veteran within the note investing arena. But it teaches the concept that individual investors are able to step into the shoes of the lender through note investing, and effectively be the bank. And in just a minute, we’re going to speak with Fred about mortgage note investing.
But first, if you like our show, there’s a couple things you can do to help us out. You can like, share and subscribe. And as always, we encourage you to leave a comment, we’d love to hear from our listeners. Also, if you want to see how handsome Our guests are, be sure to check out our YouTube channel. You can find us on YouTube at Commercial Real Estate Pro Network. And while you’re there, please subscribe. With that, I want to welcome my guest, Fred Moscowitz. Welcome to CRE PN Radio.
Fred Moskowitz 2:56
Thank you, Darrin, it’s great to be here. I’m so excited for our conversation today.
J Darrin Gross 3:01
I’m looking forward to it myself. But before we get started, if you could take just a minute and share with listeners a little bit about your background?
Fred Moskowitz 3:10
Yeah, absolutely a little bit about my background, I come from having a very long and successful career. Working as a computer engineer, I spent a lot of time working at technology startup companies. And it was wonderful, it was amazing. So many amazing opportunities that I was part of what happened was that I watched my entire industry get turned completely upside down. We lived through the bursting of the.com bubble. And then that was immediately followed by the September 11 terrorist attacks. And there was all this turmoil in the world all across the world. And our industry was in shambles it was in shambles. And what happened was I realized that I was way too dependent on the income from my job on that paycheck. That was my only income source. And so I came to this realization that even though I love my job, it was a job full of all of the circumstances out of my control. And it didn’t matter how talented an engineer I was, or how valuable of an employee I was. If things were not going well in the industry or in the company that I would lose my job through no fault of my own. And so with that, I turn to investing to find other sources of income. And I’ve wanted to generate passive income so I would not be relying on my job as my only source of income.
J Darrin Gross 5:04
Got it. So as you were looking for something different, were there any other things that you, you tried before you settled on? Investing the way you are now?
Fred Moskowitz 5:19
Well, I started out, I started out investing in real estate, I wanted to one thing I learned was that there that I couldn’t invest in tangible assets, in fact, and turning to the alternative investments area, could invest in in tangible assets, that would generate income for me while I own them. And that was very important. That was I was focused on cash flow. And so I started with investing in real estate, I built up a rental portfolio here in Philadelphia, where I’m based out of, and I did really well with that that was was going well, after a number of years, what happened was through my education, I was pursuing education, the whole time learning learning skills, learning new strategies and techniques, I learned about note investing, where you could invest in instead of buying and owning the property, you can instead buy and own the debt on the property and earn cash flow from that. And that was very intriguing to me, because I saw that it was something that you could really scale and turn into something big, you could build a very large portfolio, and it was, was not difficult to scale it. And so that became very appealing to me. And I got involved with that, and eventually has grown to where it’s the main focus of my business activity now. And real estate is a great asset. But there’s so many ways to invest in real estate. So many note investing is one of them. But what’s interesting about it, is that you you own the debt, however, you don’t own the property, so you don’t have the the management headaches of owning the property or the risk and liability of owning the property. So it does put you in a in a unique situation.
J Darrin Gross 7:29
Yeah, no, I hear you. So let’s talk about the mortgage note investing. I think probably the the first thought that comes to mind is, you know, how much money do you need to be a lender? You know, if you’re going to borrow hundreds of 1000s of dollars from the bank to buy a property as a private mortgage note investor, how much? How much does a person need in order to get started as a lender?
Fred Moskowitz 8:00
Yeah, that’s a great question. Taryn. Let me start out by saying that my focus what I do and what I teach about, it’s about not creating the lending. But we’re buying notes on the secondary market notes that were already originated by someone else. And what happens is, they’re sold at a discount. So we buy notes that exist already, either they were originated by a traditional lender or a bank or an institution, and then they’re sold on the secondary market. Now back to your back to your which is different than being the originator of the loan originator of commercial, a commercial loan commercial project. How much do you need? There? There’s no, no limit. It is a capital intensive business for sure. So you do need to have capital, there are notes, small notes that may have a five or $10,000 balance, and you can get up from there go all the way into jumbo loans which are approaching a million dollars and everywhere in between. And so there is no set amount on that. In that goes for buying individual notes. And if you invest in a note fund, where you’re investing in a fund that’s professionally managed, they will have minimums and maximums. But some of them are on the smaller end maybe $25,000 or $50,000 or $100,000. Each one is different. There’s no right or wrong. It’s it’s just however, The business model is. So really, it’s something that you can look at to see what fits best for you individually as an investor.
J Darrin Gross 10:10
Got it. So with respects to the different opportunities, whether it be invest, investing, or buying a single node or investing in a fund. Can you describe kind of the, the range of return? One might expect?
Fred Moskowitz 10:30
Yeah, absolutely. I’ll give you some, some rough examples. Think of it this way, it comes down to risk tolerance. Right? For you guys in the insurance world, you know all about this. So for someone that’s willing to take on very low risk, you’re gonna get a lower lower rate of return in exchange for the high security. Now, if you’re comfortable with a greater risk than the rate of return goes up and not. And so this is give you an idea on ranges if you’re investing in super safe notes that are in first position. And they’re there’s equity above and beyond all of the liens on the property. And it’s in a good area, and the borrower has excellent credit, excellent track record, checks all the boxes, right, you might be looking at five or 6% rate of return. Now, at the other end of the spectrum, you could get into things that have higher risk, for instance, notes that do not have a perfect payment history and perfect track record, or a borrower that is a little more challenged with their credit history credit record, or the property might not have a good equity coverage on it. Or the loan might be in second or third lien position, where it could be any of these things, or maybe it’s a loan, that’s a hard, hard money loan, where the lender, the lender is originating a loan to an investor that’s doing flip, fix and flip projects. And that’s a short term loan, but the RE returns is very high, it’s not uncommon to see 1012 14% interest rates on those. And that’s why, and so it really runs the full spectrum there. And what I found in this industry is as you get more experienced, you get more comfortable with managing risk and taking on different challenges. Maybe you’re comfortable with solving different kinds of issues. And so you pursue those higher, higher risk higher return opportunities, which is a natural progression. In note investing. It’s present in real estate investing as well. People as they become more experienced more savvy investors, they will go and acquire a property that has some problems that can be fixed has some challenges, whether it’s a management issue or or property conditions issue, but all of these things can be corrected and addressed. If you put in the work and the resources to do that, and time. And so when when you do that you become more successful as an investor, because you’re able to create value, you’re able to realize a higher rate of return and greater profitability that way because you’re pursuing opportunities that others may decline to pursue.
J Darrin Gross 14:02
Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. I want to ask you getting back to the you know, where you are selecting a loan to buy or investing in a fund. If, if I were to underwrite an individual or a, you know, for for a specific property and I’m assuming it’s, it would be very similar to like, if I was going to borrow money myself they want to see financials want to know about the property, you know, that you and your likelihood repay. When you go to buy something from, you know, an existing loan that’s already in force. How do you get the information you discussed? With respect to the likelihood of the loan being paid and how safe it is?
Fred Moskowitz 14:53
Yeah, for it for for your due diligence, right. Very important, very important prior to buying, buying To note, or investing in a note fund you have, that’s the time to do your due diligence, right. And I talk a lot about this. In my book about noon investing, I’m an entire chapter dedicated to how to perform due diligence and the various areas to look at. Now, when buying existing loan, like you said, you have, you look at the property and the property value and the borrower and their track record, all of that information is provided to you by the prior note holder, they will, they will provide that to you as part of the transaction, you have every right to, to review that information, you have the right to pull credit on the borrower, because you’re buying that loan, that mortgage. And so this is very important, you have access to this to this information. And it’s up to you to obtain it to know what you’re looking at and do an analysis. Now another area that is very important is loans are typically managed by a note serves a loan servicer. And so the servicing company is going to be able to provide reports and data on the payment history and the track record. And so you can review all of that. And that’s that’s very important. And let me just add an additional point here. loan servicers are an integral part of our business and very important vendors. Think of loan servicers as the same way that a property manager manages a rental property on behalf of the owner. The loan servicer manages the note on behalf of the lender. And they take care of keeping track of the accounting of the amortization schedule, they collect the payments from the borrower, the take phone calls, they send out the IRS tax forms at the end of the year that need to get get sent for the interest that’s been paid, they handle when a loan is going to be paid off and generating all those documents that’s needed. And also all the compliance paperwork and requirements that are that are needed. So they take care of all of this. And it really is a valuable service. And I would say that, at least in our business, we we place every single loan with a loan servicer, that’s that’s very important, because they handle so much so much of the day to day details, and it makes our lives easier. And it keeps us compliant as well.
J Darrin Gross 17:49
Ya know, they definitely don’t want to get upside down or sideways or chasing money.
Fred Moskowitz 17:55
Because we have to focus on on our business as investors, right. That’s, that’s what we do. And so a lot of things, it’s better to to delegate we’re hand off to experts, that that’s what they’re good at.
J Darrin Gross 18:13
Sure, that makes sense. So let me ask you this. You’re buying an existing loan? Why is the the existing lender selling the loan? Hmm, great, great
Fred Moskowitz 18:26
question. A lot of there’s a lot of different reasons. So the main reason that I see it revolves around liquidity. The seller of a note usually needs their capital back whether it is because they’re paying investors back. Or they’re maybe they’re recapitalizing because they have a new a new purchase transaction they need to fund it could be that there is a note fund or a mortgage backed security on Wall Street that exists for a specific timeframe. And after X number of years has elapsed, they call they collapse that investment and sell off all the assets. And so these are some of the reasons why but when we buy from we buy a lot from individual investors and other note funds and hedge funds. It’s usually due to liquidity that they need, they need the capital for something else. And so they’ll sell off notes to close out close out fund, close out an investment where raise capital for the next purchase they’re doing.
J Darrin Gross 19:45
So you mentioned you can buy these at a discount. If you have an original loan and let’s just use a like a residential mortgage for example of a 30 year fixed rate have, you know, I’m trying to think, currently think where you can get rates on five. But you know, they recently they were as low as you know, in the three years or below. You’d mentioned these five to six and 10 to 14. Are you? Are these notes not like an individual mortgage? Are they are they typically more of like a commercial nature?
Fred Moskowitz 20:26
No, they’re they’re often residential mortgages. Absolutely. There’s both types for sure. But some of the things that impact pricing may be that the loan, the loan might be in second position, for instance, we buy a lot of, of junior liens, there’s a lot of nuances to that space, it’s its niche area. And so that’s perceived as a higher risk. And with that, there’s going to be agreed or discount. Another another thing, you’ll see a lot or noon notes that they’re being paid on. But they have a less than perfect track record, maybe there’s been some lapses in in payment history, or the borrower is one month behind, however, they’re still paying every month, when when you have these scenarios, that’s going to change changed the greeting and the risk and those who will trade for a greater discount. Or if there is equity, whether it’s not full equity coverage, or maybe the properties underwater, we saw a lot of that about a decade ago where notes were bought and sold, and there was not enough equity to cover cover the lien, however, it’s still a valid lien, the borrower is still paying on the note, right? People want to stay staying in their house and live there, they’re not going to get up and move because the property value had dropped. And so you would see a lot of these different scenarios. And, and when you when that happens, that changes the valuation of the note.
J Darrin Gross 22:24
Got it? And with like a second, or a third position, again, the further you get away from being the first the rate goes up, risk goes up. Is there a a sweet spot you find for the from the length of of the loan, meaning, you know, in year one, it’s worth more than, than it is when you’re five? Or are they get? Is there a grade on the value of the loan based on length of time from origination?
Fred Moskowitz 23:01
Yeah, not so much. Not so much. Really. What’s interesting is that something that’s less important to look at. And here’s why this is really interesting phenomenon. Most common we see or third year fixed rate mortgages right here in the US. However, the average t know what the average life of a residential mortgage note is in the United States. Historically, it’s five to seven years, it’s five to seven years before the borrower will refinance and pay off that loan, or they’ll sell the property because they’re moving to a larger house, or moving because of employment, or downsizing to a smaller house, all of these life changes that happen to everyone is part of life. And so that creates an element of randomness in our industry where yes, you may have bought a 20 or 30 year note, however, you never know when the borrower is going to pay that off. And they have the right to pay off at any time. And so it creates an element of randomness because you never know when that may happen. And what when you start to manage a larger portfolio, there will always be notes being paid off. And so capital is going out because you’re buying new notes. Capital is coming back in because notes are being paid off. And so it’s a it’s a dance to keep as much of your capital deployed and at work at any given time. When you’re managing a fund managing a new portfolio, larger portfolio. This is some of the larger, higher level dynamic MX that happened. And if you think about this, if you’re sitting on capital on deployed, it’s going to create a drag on your overall rate of return, because that money is earning zero for you. So it’s only when you put it out in the form of acquiring notes or lending, that it’s generating a return for you. And so that’s always something to be looking at, and to balance in a portfolio. But it’s really interesting, as I said, that element of randomness, you never know, you never know, I’ve thought notes that one or two months after buying them, they got paid off. And if you negotiated a good discount on it, the payoff comes for the full amount of the debt. So that discount that’s becomes profit, which, which is nice, but then there’s other notes that you can earn for 510 15 years, and they’re paying and you’re making money on on your yield, and that’s fine, too. And so having a mix, having diversity in the portfolio, it helps to round that out.
J Darrin Gross 26:12
Yeah, definitely, I get the, you know, kind of the diversity thing there to, to try and mix it up. And, and it sounds like you know, similar to real estate, a lot of the the value you can create is in the upfront and the price you pay for the loan. So if you can get a significant discount. And then if the borrower pays it off, right away, I mean, homerun, that you make make all your money in a hurry. So, let me ask you, so the the opportunity for private lending? Is it a constant? Does it does it, you know, go up and down, as does the, you know, the published Fed rate? Does it go up and down with the economy as it is? It’s just always there.
Fred Moskowitz 27:04
And you’re talking about originating private lending,
J Darrin Gross 27:07
but just the opportunity to be whether to be, you know, buying secondary notes or, you know, existing or or, I mean, I guess both ways. Yeah. originators or is there a constant demand for this?
Fred Moskowitz 27:21
Yes, absolutely. There’s, there’s constant demand. People are always buying property, no matter what the real estate market looks like. And most of those transactions are financed with purchase money financing. And so and so that’s something that that all the time, it doesn’t change, what what changes is usually, with the real estate market is demand is risk profiles, property values change. And so there’s always adjustments being made. However, all all the time, there’s a demand for lending, because here in the US, there’s not a lot of real estate transactions that are funded as an all cash purchase. And if they are, you hear about them, you see, see a lot of that with investors particular, they’ll buy a property, all cash, but then after the property gets stabilized, then they’ll go in and put a loan, take out a loan on it put financing, permanent financing in place. And so really, it’s, it’s at the heart of most transactions. And so there’s always a demand for that for sure.
J Darrin Gross 28:51
So going back to the first question I was asking about, you know, how much do you need? Where do where I guess, let me ask it this way. Do most people just invest, you know, some liquid cash they have? Or do they look to the retirement funds to put to work? Yeah, that’s investing or how do people capitalize for doing this?
Fred Moskowitz 29:12
That’s a great question, Darrin. And the answer is both both of those, you You hit the nail right on the head, it’s either liquid, liquid cash, we see a lot of interest in buying and investing in notes or investing in a note fun from someone that may be just sold a property or they just exited from another investment and they have liquidity. But in addition to that, is using retirement funds, retirement account funds. And when in our business, I talked to investors all the time. And this is something that the majority of investors actually leverage the strategy using self directed retirement accounts, whether it’s 401 k or IRA funds, those funds can be used to invest in mortgage notes. or invest in real estate, it’s a great strategy. I always feel like not enough people talk about this or actually use it. But you can absolutely, if you have an old 401 K plan from a prior employer, or you have an IRA, you can put that capital to work in note investing. And what I love about that is that you’re investing in an investment that has tangible value, right? It’s backed, it’s an asset backed by buy real estate has tangible value, and so that that’s a really good security for your capital. And so, I find that that very appealing, but those, those are the ways that that people can can invest in in notes. And that goes for investing in individual notes. If you want to build a portfolio, or investing in in a note fund that’s professionally managed, you can absolutely use your retirement account money to do that. And it’s a very powerful strategy. And what I really love with that is the preferential tax treatment, especially if you have a Roth, like a Roth IRA, and then you own notes, are you You invest in a note fund all of your, your returns all of your profits? It’s tax free, as a Roth, right? And so that’s powerful. That’s very powerful. The growth in that account over the long term is phenomenal.
J Darrin Gross 31:51
Yeah, no, I love the Roth. That’s a great option. Let me ask you, in your experience, what is the the rate of failure? Portfolio wise? You know, what are you seeing? If you have, you know, 100 loans or 1000 loans over the life expectancy of those? What’s the what’s the industry? Or what’s your experience for failures?
Fred Moskowitz 32:23
Yeah, that’s a great question. It’s, it’s very low, actually, very low in in particular, with the way the real estate market has been. Even though we’ve just went through a pandemic, and there was a lot of turmoil. We did see some, some notes where borrowers were impacted by the pandemic, either they’re they stopped work, or they got sick, different things. And so there was some people that got behind. But eventually, what happens is people people get with enough time to get these problems worked out. And really didn’t see much with serious, serious problems all throughout the pandemic, which was, was really, really good. Something to think about with this is that there’s always some some rate of default, in a loan portfolio. It can be kept low through good due diligence and good management of of your notes. But it’s not perfect, right? And never, it’s never perfect, there’s no guarantee. But But most times, what I find is that with enough time, and having the right people and resources working on it, just about every problem can be resolved, come to a resolution and come out, it’s a win win scenario for everyone moving forward.
J Darrin Gross 34:06
And I would assume that the fund model would give you a little bit of insulation, where you wouldn’t necessarily be the single sole participant owner of a note, the more like a percentage of a note for that would be owned by the fund kind of thing as opposed to if you were holding the note that failed. Yeah.
Fred Moskowitz 34:27
Yeah, that’s that’s a great point. Aaron, what happens is that if you were investing, let’s say you were investing $100,000, right? You could go and buy one or two or three notes with that maybe, and all your capital is spread out into those few notes. But if you invest in a note fund, your investment now gets spread out over hundreds of notes, maybe 1000s of notes. And so there’s so much diversity there and it Just really adds an element of stability into your portfolio and into your cash flow stream. And that’s one of the nice advantages of that. It’s that diversification within the portfolio. And if I want one additional point, because you’re an insurance guy, I know this is going to resonate with you. But how do insurance companies manage their risk? Right? It’s by not me writing a policy on one person or one building or one property, they insure a pool spread out diversified. And so that the strength of the pool is what carries the whole insurance company keeps it liquid, keeps it moving well as a good entity, because yeah, there may be some claims here and there, but not likely that all of the insurance, all the policies are going to have a claim all at the same time. Highly unlikely. And so it’s the same thing. And so it’s, I like to say we take a page out of the playbook from insurance companies, in the note business by doing that same thing, have a portfolio, and now your your risk is spread out into that diversification among many notes, and that’s wonderful.
J Darrin Gross 36:24
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Do you guys use any kind of algorithm or any kind of, you know, computer modeling, to determine kind of level of risk? Or is it more of kind of like, one loan, you know, one, one, review? Kind of a scenario? I mean, is it is it deep? Are you doing all the underwriting individually, personally? Or is there more of a model that you guys look for? If you’re buying like a pool of loans from a, from a lender?
Fred Moskowitz 37:01
Yeah, it’s, it’s a combination of the two, we absolutely look at each loan individually, when when we’re buying. But in the beginning, when we’re looking through many, many loans, we’ll definitely use some modeling to to kick out loans or exclude loans that maybe don’t meet the criteria we’re setting. And so that’s very important to to do that. But there’s a lot of great tools and modeling that that can be done to help you with that, if you’re looking at a larger portfolio.
J Darrin Gross 37:38
Got it. Hey Fred, if we could, I’d like to shift gears here for a second by day, I’m an insurance broker. And as such, I work with my clients to assess risk and determine what to do with the risk. And there’s three strategies we typically consider, we first look to see if there’s a way we can avoid the risk, when that’s not an option, we’ll see if there’s a way we can minimize the risk. And when we cannot avoid nor minimize the risk, then we look to see if we can transfer the risk. And that’s what an insurance policy is. And as such, I like to ask my guests, if they can look at their own situation. It could be clients, investors, political, the Fed, weather, you know, whatever it is you you consider to be the biggest risk, but identify what what that is. And, you know, let us know what you consider to be the biggest risk. And, again, for clarification, while I am an insurance broker, I’m not necessarily looking for an insurance related answer. And so if you’re willing, I’d like to ask you Fred Moscowitz. What is the Biggest Risk?
Fred Moskowitz 38:53
Wow, this is a great question. There’s, there’s many, many risks. That’s a big part of what we do is known investors is get good at understanding what they are. As I said earlier, diversification is is a great way to manage risk and the note portfolio, but some other other areas, it’s really getting good at doing your due diligence before purchase. As I said, I dedicate a large portion of my book to this topic because it’s so important. It’s prior to buying, running your due diligence and surrounding yourself with the right individuals to help you whether it’s vendors its data providers, to give you the resources and information. It can be an another area super important. Is counterparty risk when you’re buying a note, who are you buying from? This is a big one. You want to make sure you’re comfortable with who and this goes for any any business transaction. Are you comfortable with who you’re you’re entering into a business transaction with with them as a person with their company, their reputation and track record industry, I feel like this is something that often gets overlooked, or doesn’t get enough attention to it. Because deals can go bad transactions can have problems, they can go bad. And so what’s very important is how is the other person going to respond and cooperate and work with you to solve a problem that comes up? Because we live in a far from perfect world? And so you want to know, how is the other person going to show up and resolve this issue. And that matters so much, so much, so that you’re comfortable, that you can work through an issue, you can still be friends at the end and walk away knowing that everyone got a fair transaction. And you’re looking forward to doing the next deal again, in the future. There’s nothing worse than walking away from a transaction saying never again, am I going to deal with this individual or this company, or this client, it’s so all these headaches, it’s the worst feeling in the world. And so that’s something you can avoid upfront. Something you can easily avoid upfront. And that that’s, I would say, a huge risk that a lot of people neglect to think about or talk about.
J Darrin Gross 41:42
Yeah, no, definitely want to know who you’re dealing with. And, you know, otherwise, you might find out the hard way, once it’s yours, and that can be expensive. So that’s good to know. Hey, Fred, where can listeners go if they would like to learn more or connect with you?
Fred Moskowitz 42:01
Thank you, thank you appreciate that. Best way to connect with me is to visit my website, which is FredMoscowitz.com. Or if you prefer, I have an easier spelling for you. You can go to gift from fred.com. It’ll take you right to my website. And once you’re there, you can learn more about me, you can connect with me and request a copy of a special report on Node investing, be happy to send that out. And my book is available on Amazon, which provides a great overview of the industry and node investing as an asset class and how to get started how to get involved. It’s called The Little Green Book of note investing, and it’s available on Amazon. Oh one more thing. If you prefer to use your mobile device, you can connect with me by texting, text, the word money to 215-461-4433 and then follow the prompts. I look forward to connecting with you and interacting with you. I always love speaking with investors and learning about what they do.
J Darrin Gross 43:16
Awesome. Fread Moscowitz thanks for taking the time to talk today. I’ve enjoyed it. Learned a lot, and I look forward to doing it again soon.
Fred Moskowitz 43:26
Thank you Darrin was my pleasure. Thank you for having me on the show.
J Darrin Gross 43:31
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