Yoel Mayerfeld 0:00
You’re buying in the metro market, you’re often buying a higher rent. When you’re buying in one of our markets, we’re buying a much lower rent because the real estate, it costs less, therefore we can have these retailers operate at much lower operating expense. What we’re giving up for that, I think, is rent growth in our markets that aren’t going to grow as quickly as some of those Metro growth areas. We’re not going to get the big huge rent increases that historically some of them at Metro markets have had experienced. But we’re very happy to give up that growth for the higher going in yield and the stability of that yield. And as our track record is shown, you know, we’ve been able to maintain very, very stable, current cash flow for ourselves and our investors for for many years.
Welcome to CRE PN Radio for influential commercial real estate professionals who work with investors, buyers and sellers of commercial real estate coast to coast whether you’re an investor, broker, lender, property manager, attorney or accountant We are here to learn from the experts.
J Darrin Gross 1:10
Welcome to Commercial Real Estate Pro Network’s, CRE PN Radio. Thanks for joining us. My name is J. Darrin Gross. This is a podcast focused on commercial real estate investment and risk management strategies. Weekly we have conversations with commercial real estate investors and professionals who provide their experience and insight to help you grow your real estate portfolio.
Today, my guest is Yoel Mayerfeld. Yoel is the CO CEO with Chase Properties, where he oversees the company’s asset management and financing. Mr. Mayerfeld joined Chase Properties as the Director of Finance in 2005. And in just a minute, we’re going to speak with Yoel about a winning investment in retail. While others have been quick to move away from the asset class Chase has been thriving in retail.
But first a quick reminder, if you like our show, CRE PN Radio, there are a couple things you can do to help. You can like, share and subscribe. And as always, we encourage our listeners to leave a comment we’d love to hear from you. Also, if you’d like to see I answer my guests are, be sure to check out our YouTube channel. And you can find us on youtube at commercial real estate pro network. And while you’re there, please subscribe. With that, I want to welcome my guest, Yoel, Welcome to CRE PN Radio.
Yoel Mayerfeld 2:35
Thanks. Thanks for having me.
J Darrin Gross 2:38
Well, I’m looking forward to our talk today. But before we get started, if you could take just a minute and share with the listeners a little bit about your background.
Yoel Mayerfeld 2:46
Sure. So my background was in finance is where I started out after college, I was a derivatives trader, for many years, really focusing on risk. And towards the end of that first career, I was running an exotics derivatives book for a bank and was searching for my next career to be something much more tangible than exotic derivatives that I had to rely on sort of Monte Carlo models to solve difficult hedging strategy ideas.
So real estate was was really what, what was attractive to me, because I could I could understand how to evaluate the risk reward for real estate. So about 18 years ago, I left New York with my wife and we moved to Cleveland, and joined chase properties which historically had been a family capitalized, retail real estate developer and acquirer and had been there ever since.
J Darrin Gross 4:24
Got it? Got it. I gotta ask you real quick I derivatives. I know the word but I don’t know that I know what what that entails. I mean, when you’re when you’re trading for a fund, can you give a just a quick description as to what that what that entails?
Yoel Mayerfeld 4:39
Sure. So it’s really any any financial instrument that is you know, a derivative of something else. So in my case, it was equity derivatives. So it was derivatives of stocks. So an option like a call option or a put option or a swap are primary examples of derivatives. And then certainly their derivatives on commodities and fixed income. But what I spent time on was the equity markets. And for the first part of my career, mostly it was more vanilla structured calls, puts, swaps. And then the latter part, it became exotics, which are just much more complicated contracts between buyer and seller, that allow for different scenarios and different protection of risk or ways to speculate on volatility as an example,
J Darrin Gross 5:46
Got it. No, I’ve always kind of been fascinated how, you know, the the big money wins in a market that’s going up or down. And I’m assuming that, you know, a lot of a lot of the ability to win like that is to deal to do with kind of what you were you’re doing there is the ability to kind of structure those opportunities.
Yoel Mayerfeld 6:08
Absolutely. And I worked for banks during my career. So our other side of the trade was often hedge funds who are doing exactly what you’re talking about, where if they were volatility, our arbitrage hedge funds, they were buying that contract from me to do exactly what you’re saying, find ways to make money, regardless of the markets going up or down.
J Darrin Gross 6:39
Got it? Got it. I appreciate you sharing that. So you’ve been at Chase now since 2005. And you mentioned that the Chase was basically a a family run developer, I want to understand you
Yoel Mayerfeld 6:56
Correctly started nearly 40, just under 50 years ago, developing retail shopping centers, for Kmart really came up with the anchor way back when we started. And ultimately for other anchors, and then probably about 20 years ago, we really transitioned, when we saw that country didn’t really need any more retail, that there were enough opportunities in the existing retail to acquire good cash flowing shopping centers, we we probably then still developed in a smaller way, but move more into an acquisition mode of finding value or where maybe others didn’t see value based on our experience in smaller markets, which is where we’ve always thrived even from our development days. So our focus has always been in secondary and tertiary markets like to state the strong small markets so we we stay away from the real teeny tiny markets that maybe have less economic diversity. Two examples of towns you probably heard of are like South Bend Indiana is is a market we love or you know, I’m based here in Cleveland, Western Ohio if you’ve heard of that market for many of the markets, you probably haven’t heard of it you know, smaller markets in Kentucky that are super strong, super stable, great trade areas, we’re we’re able to find a retail hub and and the best center in that retail hub, in an in an isolated market where, you know, many counties come to our town, our retail center for their for their shopping.
J Darrin Gross 8:57
I like it easier to be a big fish in a small pond and then a little fish in a big pond kind of thing. So the the I guess the the question, I’d have territorial or the territory you guys operate in, is it primarily Midwestern or do you guys how far out do you get?
Yoel Mayerfeld 9:20
Yeah, it has been primarily Midwest, or as far west as Kansas. We’ve really been situated in. We look for centers in the Midwest, the southeast, and the Northeast, but it’s primarily been the Midwest and a little bit more of the southeast as of late. We love We love the Carolinas that’s been probably over the last 10 years we’ve entered into the Carolinas. But the Midwest has really been our bread and butter for most of our existence.
J Darrin Gross 9:54
Got it. So can you characterize the The difference, and I say the difference, because, you know, as of late, especially with COVID, and the Amazon effect on retail, there’s been a change that’s occurred in, in retail as far as more of your your Metro, primary secondary markets, and that, as opposed to what you’re experiencing in your tertiary and, and, and strong small markets. So I want to make sure I understand the question, right. Are you saying how are we experiencing the Amazon effect differently than maybe other retail readers? is it affecting you similarly to, you know, and I say this having interviewed other people about retail, and how it’s, it’s struggled in a lot of major metro areas. Recently, and I’d say the, the, the first you know, cause of that was probably primarily the the Amazon effect, but then that was accelerated, based on what COVID? You know, as is shown us, yeah, with the restriction of people moving about and their unwillingness to go out, or their inability to go out and shop. And so I’m just kind of curious from, from your standpoint, investing in the markets you’re in. Have you seen any effect caused by Amazon and or has COVID affected any of your, your tenants? maybe it’d be the first place to start is, you know, I guess the type of tenants you you have, are they primarily anchor tenants?
Yoel Mayerfeld 11:48
Yeah, so we typically buy centers that have that are anchored or shadow anchored, as we call it, which means it looks like it’s part of the shopping center, but we don’t own the real estate for a target or super Walmart. And then our tendency is typically the TJ Maxx is Ross dress for less Dick’s Sporting Goods hobby lobby’s, that’s, that’s the part of the real estate that will own so Junior anchors, but anchored by a bigger box, typically. So that’s how our shopping centers typically are laid out and look, in terms of Amazon, and COVID. Similar answers to both I would say, but more importantly, it would be Amazon, because that’s going to continue well beyond COVID. And yeah, we absolutely have fared differently from our, our friends in the metro market business. I would say it’s more lucky than smart. You know, when we started focusing on these smaller markets, it wasn’t because of an expectation of an Amazon. You know, funnily enough, I started my career at Bankers Trust when Jeff Bezos was there at Bankers Trust. And he went on to start Amazon and I went eventually to invest in in the opposite of Amazon in bricks and mortar. So you know, no, nothing, no expectation in what was coming with e commerce when we when we started focusing on on these smaller markets. But luckily, because we’re in these isolated markets, what are retail relationships our friends in the retail business tell us is that we are needed so much more. Our physical locations are needed so much more than in the metro markets, were there several of their stores. So let’s say Best Buy as an example. You know, often, our best buy in our shopping center is the only Best Buy for at least 50 miles. What they tell us is that their online customers will not be comfortable buying online, if they don’t have a store that they in their mind, know that they can return to or go and check it out or ask questions to. So they may be an online customer, but they’re much less likely to be an online customer if there isn’t a store for 50 miles. So what that allows is for the retailers to really consider our location as a meaningful hub for them to enhance their online presence. And then more recently, as these retailers have figured out that their stores need to be almost mini distribution centers. You know, it’s it’s been very targets been very public that I think 95% of their online orders are coming or being shipped from their store directly. And that’s happening on a major scale like a target and Walmart, but also on a minor scale where the buy online, pick up in store are so meaningful for these retailers, that having us in these locations that are far from the next location, make us much more important to those retailers. And we’ve seen that in that even if our sales performance, which is the number one factor in, in us, buying and keeping owning certain shopping centers, isn’t as high as maybe a certain Metro market, we know that its relevance is much higher. So that’s been a big help for us. And why I think we haven’t seen stores close in our portfolio. Now the Amazon effect on the negative side, which just affects us the same way, as
Metro markets is any of the retailers that hadn’t figured out their strategy to compete with Amazon, which the winning strategy has been their omni channel marketing their their ability to integrate bricks and mortar with online, the ones that didn’t, weren’t able to figure that out. And Amazon and really COVID also expedited their demise. And their bankruptcies certainly have affected us anytime we have a vacancy. That’s, that’s typically a challenge for us, we have to go and fill it. But our strategy in really owning the best center and a given strong market allows us to mitigate for that and refill that space pretty quickly. I mean, right now we’re at our highest occupancy we’ve been in years, when we, when we did lose tenants to bankruptcies, we’ve been able to fill their spaces very quickly. And that’s that’s been, I think, partly due to our strategy of having this monopolistic position in a given market or trade area.
J Darrin Gross 17:10
No, it sounds definitely, you know, you’re certainly in demand. If you’re able to fill the big box, I know, like, I grew up in the Midwest and in kind of suburbia of Kansas City. And one of the things that I and now I live in Portland, Oregon, but one of the things that I’ve I’ve always been, you know, he says comparison is how like, and then the Midwest. The the availability of space was, like, unlimited. And so that a lot of times he had this kind of a leapfrog effect where, you know, you’d have a new suburb, but then there’d be the one that grew beyond that one. And there’s almost like a proportional value placed on your your property based on how new it was, you know, even though you’re moving further and further and further from the corner, I think some of that’s kind of is right, or it’s, it’s recalibrating, and there’s kind of a recognition of wanting to be closer to the core, in some cases, but But what was was kind of eye opening for me was to see these great big, huge malls, just going dark, you know, and I was like, Well, how many malls? Can you support? I mean, if you keep building a new one further out, people are going to be drawn, you know, attracted to that, and you had these these big mega malls, but what in the market to your, you know, based in it sounds like, you know, if you’re the Center for 50 miles? I mean, what kind of a population Do you guys look for? when you’re when you’re making an investment? Is there a, is there a, you know, target population size for a surrounding area that you guys are minimum population size? For?
Yoel Mayerfeld 18:56
Absolutely, we won’t look at anything less than 50,000 people in the trade area, but typically, we’re closer to 100,000, at least. And that’s typically our sweet spot. Got it.
J Darrin Gross 19:09
On the in those markets, do you find that the cap rates and the return I mean, cash flow return? More or higher cabinet? I would assume a cap rate than what you would find in a in a metro.
Yoel Mayerfeld 19:27
Yeah, that’s always been part of our attraction and draw is we’ve you know, typically been at probably about a 200 basis point, spread and cap rate compared to our Metro market. Competition, so where Metro markets might have been at six caps we were at eight caps and that 20 basis point spread probably remains the same today. We’re buying in the eight, eight cap approx range for what we’ve always felt were more stable flows of income, then then those Metro markets, which due to their competition, just have a lot more potential risk. you’re, when you’re buying in Metro market, you’re often buying a higher rent, when you’re buying in one of our markets, we’re buying a much lower rent because the real estate, it costs less. So therefore, we can have these retailers operate at much lower operating expense. So what we’re giving up for that, I think, is rent growth in our markets that aren’t going to grow as quickly as some of those Metro growth areas, we’re not going to get the big huge rent increases that historically, some of them in Metro markets have had experienced, but we’re very happy to give up that growth for the higher going in yield and the stability of that yield. And as our track record is shown, you know, we’ve been able to maintain very, very stable current cash flow for ourselves and our investors for for many years.
J Darrin Gross 21:20
Katherine, I want to circle back quick, you’d mentioned something about the omni channel distribution plan for the successful retailers. And in the beginning, you’d mentioned that the the chase properties had built and done a lot with Kmart. Having been a former Kmart employee while I was in in high school, and also I worked at Sears I think, when I was in high school and college the it always I mean it just it really it’s amazing to me that the the company that had the Christmas wish book that had you know, basically you know, they were the retailer basically was not able to you know, figure out this omni channel thing and get get basically left in the dust and I believe I mean I thought I saw something where Sears has gone bankrupt. And I thought Sears had acquired Kmart at one point I it’s my history my retail history is very fuzzy but i think that’s that’s what it was. Yeah. So I was gonna ask you Do you still have any case Kmart even a brand is is it still any of your tenants are evolving,
Yoel Mayerfeld 22:38
don’t we so you know what one one thing I think we do a good job of is trying to get ahead of of when we see a trend going the wrong way. We’re typically long term holders of real estate but when we’re seeing either demographic changes in one of our markets or retailer issues in a given center that where we don’t feel it would be a creative to replace that retailer if they go out of business we look to sell so we sold out of our Kmart you know many years ago and see or anything that we had with with those as anchors, which we tried to get out of so fortunately, we didn’t sit and wait for their demise. Now in some cases, I have friends that that stuck with Kmart that they really wanted back from the retailer because they were usually in paying such low rents that if you were in a if you if you could wait it out if you could wait till they would not want to pay rent anymore and you could because the stores were all performing terribly. You could you know, do something with the space that would be considerably accretive compared to the Kmart right you were getting that those became wins for many people but we were able to sell before for Kmart was as bad as it was.
J Darrin Gross 24:16
You mentioned you guys are gonna love long term holds. Is is the Do you guys run a fund or do you is it primarily a private family fund or how the hell
Yoel Mayerfeld 24:31
Yeah, we we did we started bringing outside capital in through a fund that structure probably 11, 12 years ago. So we we currently are in our fourth Fund, which we’ve been typically the biggest investor in the fund. But we have several friends and family and friends of friends that have invested with us and been a part In this the same strategy and, and that’s how we buy our retail today.
J Darrin Gross 25:07
Got it? And hold time, what is a typical hold time for you mentioned you you get out of something, if you realize it’s going, you know, you the future doesn’t look bright. Is your whole time forever? If If not, or?
Yoel Mayerfeld 25:22
Yeah, that’s a great question. Because sometimes people ask me, what’s the difference in how you invest when you were investing for the single family, versus when you started taking outside investors. And that’s, that’s the biggest difference. It’s not that we invest differently, but we have to structure something differently, because most investors want to know that there is a defined exit a time where they’re going to get their initial capital back. Because, you know, they may be thinking, like, they might be dead, and they want to know, when their children will see their money back, things like that. So for our funds, we set up seven year holds with three, one year extension period, so it’s a seven to 10 year hold, which would have been different than our typical, by great real estate forever, only sell when we see trends moving against us, or for some reason, we feel we’re not the right operator of that center, maybe it’s too far from us, and are too far from the rest of our centers for us to lease it and manage it as well as, as someone else might be able to. But otherwise, we’re really long term forever holders. But what we do have is the ability then to, if we feel the real estate is great to buy that real estate, along with all of our investors, at the end of that phone life, so that we could theoretically continue to hold that asset forever. But it allows for investors, if they want that liquidity in the seven to 10 year period, to to be able to get have an exit.
J Darrin Gross 27:11
That’s always been kind of, right, I should say always, it was kind of an aha moment for me to understand that. You know, and I’m a very small time investor, small residential stuff, but I’ve always done it. And my just my wife and I have been the Capitol, and pretty much forever holding and just kind of understanding how the investors I mean, if you’re going to bring in other capital, you’ve got to have an exit strategy because they like the like I said, they want their money back. So just a different structure and and just understanding that. So I was looking here are you finding in the markets that you are operating in? Are there lots of opportunities? Or is this kind of a you know, a lot of Commercial Real Estate’s kind of a fairly close to the vest if you’re, if you’re a known entity, there’s you’re getting the calls of there’s properties available? Are you guys out, you know, scouring the market looking for new markets and new opportunities?
Yoel Mayerfeld 28:19
Yeah, we’re always scouring the markets. But you know, fortunately, one of the one of the benefits of being around for almost 50 years and really being focused on this space is we are known as one of the largest private buyers of small smaller market retail. So we typically get that first call and certainly when something when when an asset is being marketed, or even when they’re not when when a read when a public real estate firm is looking to sell real estate in the secondary or tertiary market we’re often getting that call, but we also have our eye on assets that we would love to own for the long term and we’re letting those owners know that we’re interested should they decide to sell so we’re constantly scouring the market we look at 1000s of deals a year broadly and then you know that gets filtered to hundreds that we spend time on and then we probably go and look at 20 assets a year or so and typically transact on two to five assets a year.
J Darrin Gross 29:37
And in the market you play in Are you typically like if there’s a if you ever look at any dark properties or not but is it typically it’s it’s repurposed for retail or have you gotten in anything where you’ve seen different opportunities IE self storage or something like that I’ve heard you know others converting some of the the dark retail into You know, maybe a self storage kind of thing.
Yoel Mayerfeld 30:02
Yeah, you know, repurpose is sort of a hot topic in, in retail, particularly with malls, and we could talk about malls separately. But for our open air shopping centers, when we see, they can see that’s been vacant for a while, it’s typically vacant for a reason. Now that was different 10 years ago, 20 years ago, where there were opportunities to do something on a value add basis, because of our retail relationships and our expertise in these markets. Today, it’s it’s rare, we’ll do it we’ll look at certainly when there’s one box or two boxes, that that we can we can do something with. But when we see one of these ghost town, retail centers, it’s typically not something we’re going to want to pursue in terms of repurposing to self storage, or use like that, or even, you know, on the more expensive side, multifamily or, or industrial, you need to be able to own that asset at such a low basis, to make it make sense whether because the Self Storage rents are going to be so low, or on the multifamily side, the amount of capital or industrial, the amount of capital you’re going to need to put in is, is so extreme that it’s it’s it, it’s a lot harder than I think people think, you know, to to make that work. So so you know, if you can basically get it for free, or almost free. I think there’s a lot of interesting opportunities to debt. And people do, you know, sometimes you can buy, you know, the debt for pennies on the dollar, and you can make something like that work. But outside of that, it’s pretty difficult to make the math work.
J Darrin Gross 32:08
Right. Right. You mentioned some other assets. Do I understand correctly that you guys are also in some multifamily and industrial properties?
Yoel Mayerfeld 32:18
Yeah, we’ve been probably over the past five years, diversifying into multifamily and industrial. You know, we are still extremely bullish on retail and the retail that we like, but we’re extremely disciplined on what retail will buy. So to broaden our ability to find investments for ourselves and our investors, we’ve brought in expertise from for multifamily and industrial to help us source, similar risk reward type properties, stronger smaller markets. we’ve, we’ve bought in outside of St. Louis, we’re getting ready to do a smaller market in Florida shortly. That’s on the multifamily side industrial we’ve bought in Ohio, a few assets we’ve bought in markets outside of Orlando. So we’re building that up for those asset classes, we have not started a fund business, we are not at the point where we want to do a blind fund for our investors, where we’re buying those on a deal by deal basis. We, you know, we invest in that we go to our investors, and show them the asset and see if they’d like to participate with us. And so far, that’s been a really great expansion for us.
J Darrin Gross 33:51
In for those assets, are you entering the same kind of mindset is a forever hold? Or is that a Kennedy have an exit strategy on those?
Yoel Mayerfeld 33:59
Yeah, they really are. Forever holds, ideally. I mean, we were faced with that question on this St. Louis asset recently, where we were able to expand the project and raise rents higher than we had expected. And the there was, you know, and with cap rates in continuing to compress. It was we were faced with one of these, you know, this has been a home run, let’s take money off the table. which typically isn’t really you know, we’re not seeing that drastic of a return change within a couple years. And, you know, we knew for ourselves and our investors. Having that great asset and being able to continue cash flow on that great asset was our number one priority. So we chose to refinance, we’re still able to take out a lot of our winnings, let’s say, from the refinance, but we’re gonna be able to continue to own an asset that we love, and we think will continue to perform for the long term. So, yeah, more often than not, we’re going to we’re going to continue even on those other asset classes to own for the long term and continue good stable cash flow returns for us and our investors.
J Darrin Gross 35:27
Tad it when you speak in industrial, is there a type of industrial that you guys are into? or?
Yoel Mayerfeld 35:37
Yeah, I mean, it’s, it comes back to the fundamentals of what we like in, in retail, which is solid credit tenants are the users or a geography that’s going to demand those solid credit tenants. So you know, the, the assets we’ve bought, have ranged from a vacant truck terminal, that we were able to put a very strong credit public company tenant in for a 10 year lease, to a cold storage facility that we were able to put a very strong credit tenant food distributor in, and we’re even expanding that. That building now because the demand is so strong for high credit tenants in those areas. So I would say, choosing assets, where we know we’re gonna have demand for the from the kind of tenants that we’re going to want to work with.
J Darrin Gross 36:41
Now, that makes sense, always have no credit where the tenant is preferred is to somebody is not you? Well, if we could, I’d like to shift gears for a second. As I mentioned to you, before we started recording by day, I’m an insurance broker. And I try and work with my clients to assess risk, and determine what to do with risk. And we typically do that and in one of three ways, we look to see if we can first avoid the risk. If that’s not an option, we look to see if we can minimize the risk. And when neither of those are options, we look to see if we can transfer the risk. And that’s what an insurance policy is. I like to ask my guests if they can look at their own situation. their clients, investors, the market tenants, however you want to frame it. But if you can look at your situation, and consider what what is the biggest risk? And for clarification, I’m not necessarily looking for an insurance related answer. But if you’re willing, I’d like to ask you, Yoel Mayerfeld, what is the BIGGEST RISK?
Yoel Mayerfeld 37:55
Sure. Well answer in a couple of ways. And risk, as I mentioned, from, you know, how I was trained in in my professional life is really what I’m always first focused on, you know, whenever we’re looking at an opportunity. I’m always spending a lot more time on what can go wrong than what can go right. Because capital preservation is our sort of number one goal. From a you know, I would I was looking at my calendar yesterday and saw that we had this podcast and Robbie, who set this up with you wrote in the notes that one question you like to ask is about risk. I should be I should be repair at night, and I happen to be talking to a friend of mine. It’s a CEO of a large real estate company public read, and I said, Oh, you know, I, I’m interested in what I’m going to say about what my largest, what I think the biggest risk in this industry is what do you think the biggest risk is? And he said, Well, for sure, the biggest risk is capital markets, freezing up, because whenever that happens, it really puts us in, in a bind. And to be able to, to borrow, which we saw, you know, certainly after the oh eight recession and during COVID. But for me, that isn’t at all, what I think has the biggest risk and I think part of that is our strategy, which one thing I didn’t get into is that we are low leverage borrowers, which I think differentiates us. So a even when capital markets are tight, for our lower loan to value needs. Usually there’s more room for us than for others. Our bankers always tell us they can sleep at night with us better than they can sleep at night with many of their other real estate borrowers. So I just thought that was interesting. I think that would be what a lot of Retail real estate or real estate investors in general would say it’s the biggest risk. But for us, we’re so focused on the real estate, and it performing with or without debt, we’re really not about the financial engineering part of real estate, which, at these low cap rates, I think every real estate investor has had to become somewhat more of a financial engineering, trade than a real estate is a real estate great trade, which is where we really try to stick with. So. So for us, that wouldn’t be it for us really on our answer on the retail side, which has been the bulk of our experience and our, in our investment. The biggest risk is the, you know, we can’t perform well, for attendance don’t perform well. So our biggest risk is, is is these retailers, not figuring it out. And and right now they’ve been, you know, our portfolio, the sales that tenants report to us are stronger than they’ve been even pre COVID. They’re figuring out their integration of bricks and mortar and online. So they’re doing that well. But the day that they don’t, the day that they they let you know, competition like Amazon, innovate quicker, you know, figure it out in a way that that puts them at a disadvantage. That’s a big risk to us, we need our our tenants to do well. So that’s on a more micro to the retail aspect for for more of a macro perspective, as real estate investors generally, which is what we are, I would say it’s the risk of the unknown. After living through COVID, you know, you mentioned insurance, you know, we have what we feel is, you know, really good insurance for our portfolio and thought of every scenario. You know, we weren’t covered for lack of rent during COVID, when your retailers couldn’t pay. So I think the unknown is the biggest risk. So the mitigant, I would say, has has been, our diverse diversification is sort of like the answer for all kinds of risk for investing. And adding multifamily and industrial was a huge help now, for COVID. Because our retailers couldn’t pay rent during COVID, because their stores were closed. Our industrial properties all paid rent, our multifamily properties all paid rent. So that diversification was huge for for during that three month period of COVID, that helped us sleep better at night.
Now, even the retail properties it was it was very temporary, and it was a stressful few months when those stores were closed, but we defer the rents for most of our retailers, because our lenders allowed us to defer our loan payments. So all worked out fine. But having that diversification was really a mitigate for, for us, globally. And then the diversification even in within our retail portfolio of mixed geographies, mixed tenants for different credits, so that when, you know, the Siena brands struggled and dress barn closed, it was such a tiny percentage of all of our tenancy that it was very easy to to move beyond that fill, fill some of those dress barns and most of our portfolio continue to thrive. So we were Okay, so the answer to mitigating some of these risks that I think about it continues to be diversification, which has really helped us.
J Darrin Gross 43:49
and I appreciate you going into that the clearly diversification makes sense. I think the thing you mentioned about the the way you structure your your deals where you’re not so heavily leveraged, I don’t think a lot of people really realize the risk that they run when they take on a you know, a greater leverage position. And, you know, hopefully it doesn’t mind people will clearly history shown if you get out there too far over your skis. The bank can call back here your note and and you don’t have the wherewithal to withstand that or the ability to to find new capital. You could be sunk. So I appreciate you sharing that. Sure. You well where can listeners go if they would like to learn more connect with you?
Yoel Mayerfeld 44:44
Sure. They can go to either our website ChaseProp.com they can email me directly which my emails email@example.com. Y M like Mary YE R like Roger F like Frank. E L like Larry D like David at chase prop dot com. I think one of my LinkedIn, Yoel Mayerfeld. And happy to answer any questions or talk to any of your listeners.
J Darrin Gross 45:12
Awesome. Yoel, I can’t say thanks enough for taking the time to talk today. I’ve enjoyed it and learned a lot. And hopefully we can do it again soon.
Yoel Mayerfeld 45:22
Yeah, thank you. This was great. I really had fun. I appreciate it.
J Darrin Gross 45:25
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