Lior Gantz 0:00
When you do when you buy a company if it’s a private company if it’s a laundromat or a restaurant in your area, whenever you look at earnings. What am I buying compared to what am I paying? Today, investors are paying some of the highest prices for stocks compared to the earnings that they make. But if you look at the alternatives to generating a return about 75% of the worlds bonds yield less than 1%.
Welcome to CREPN Radio for influential commercial real estate professionals who work with investors buyers and sellers of commercial real estate coast to coast whether you’re an investor broker, lender, property manager, attorney or accountant We are here to learn from the experts.
J Darrin Gross 0:53
Welcome to Commercial Real Estate Pro Networks CREPN Radio. Thanks for joining us. My name is J. Darrin Gross. This is the podcast focused on commercial real estate investment and risk management strategies. Weekly we have conversations with commercial real estate investors and professionals who provide their experience and insight to help you grow your real estate portfolio.
Today, my guest is Lior Gantz. Lior is the founder and editor of the free number one rated financial newsletter, Wealth Research Group. He’s an investor. And in just a minute, we’re going to talk with Lior about the real economy versus the stock market. But first, a quick reminder, if you like the show, CREPN Radio, there’s couple things you can do. You can like, share and subscribe. And as always, we would love for you to leave a comment we’d love to hear from our listeners. Also, if you’d like to see how handsome our guests are, be sure to check out our YouTube channel. And you can find this on YouTube at Commercial Real Estate Pro Network. With that on welcome back, Lior to CREPN Radio. Lior welcome back.
Lior Gantz 2:09
Thanks for having me back.
J Darrin Gross 2:11
I’m looking forward to our talk today. I think the last time we were together, things were a little different. There was no pandemic. And you know, just definitely some some different circumstances. So but before we get started, if you could just take a minute and share with the listeners a little bit about your background.
Lior Gantz 2:34
Okay. I’m 36. And when I was 13, I think I had a pivotal moment in my life where my father’s business went under, and I had to start earning money for myself if I want to allowance and stuff. So I started babysitting in my neighborhood. And then I told all the parents that I was babysitting at least the male children. That I can tutor them in basketball. So I upsold the parents. For the first time in my life, I upsold something. And then babysat, tutored basketball, and started saving money. I’m 16. I have $20,000 in the bank saved up from like three years of this stuff. And the banker says, Well, you have all this money, why don’t you invest in a way to make your money work? And what does that mean? This? Well, you you invest in the stock market, sign up, get your parents sign waiver, your 16 it’s your parents sign a waiver and we can start doing this. And this was June of 2000. It’s like three months after the.com bubble burst. So in hindsight, a very good time to start investing, and he was like, you should you should see China. And so he was literally telling me great stuff. And then I asked him, What should I learn? Because I was in high school. So you know, my mind is like, what book should I read? Amazon was just starting to ship books. So I bought A bunch of books in English and started tearing through them. And that’s how I got into investing.
My father’s my father had a second business and third business both going under as well. So my mind was obsessed about risk. And what’s he missing? Because I’m, you know, father figure is very important in your life you always assume as a hero, and here’s this guy failing and failing and failing. So, by the time I’m 23, I’m so engaged in entrepreneurship and business and how to do it, right. And that’s the path I took life entrepreneurship and investing. And about four years ago, I really, it’s something to me that most people do not read, you know, one book a week for, for their entire 20s and most people do not have financial education. So I said, let me congest everything that I’m doing because I’m reading four hours a day Talk to CEOs and I, I do the business in our own business and let me congeste it to bite size article three times a week, a week about the economy what’s going on, if I see specific opportunities, then to cover them as well. And that’s how we found that Wealth Research Group in 2016. It’s a free letter, it was one of the first letters to cover Bitcoin $400 per coin. And in early 2017, it was the first newsletter that I know of that covered ethereum, which was a cryptocurrency that traded for $12 when I covered it in $1,000, six months later. And last year, when I was on the show, we talked about gold, gold is actually as we’re doing this interview is an all time high. So, you know, that’s sort of the the way that the newsletter works. We really talk a lot about the economy, and we try to see exactly what’s really important for To give educated on right now and to cover it.
J Darrin Gross 6:04
So let me ask you the the I’ll say the average consumer myself included you turn on the news there’s a blip usually about the the market rallied or the market gave back. But it’s usually focused around the indexes. You’ve got your your DOW or your a in
Lior Gantz 6:29
The Dow and
J Darrin Gross 6:31
S&P yeah NASDAQ and the S&P 500. And those are kind of like just these reference points that are kind of like a collection of multiple stocks and an index and I think if I recall the DOW is the, the collective price of multiple stocks
Lior Gantz 6:51
30 industrials, the 30 Industrial stocks Yeah.
J Darrin Gross 6:54
Okay. So they’re their price combined, equals this. This index
Lior Gantz 7:00
So no, it’s it’s, it’s, it’s weighted on the market cap. So it’s not something like each company is 3% of the index of the index. It’s it’s weighted according to your industry, ya know, to your size to your market.
J Darrin Gross 7:17
Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha.
All right. So, so if the average person is watching the news, and they see it’s up, it’s down, it’s up, it’s down. It’s up, it’s down. And you have some sort of a reference point. I mean, like, right now, I know when when this whole COVID thing started. I think we were, we’re closing in on 29 or we are at 29,000 for the Dow. And since then, I think yesterday I was watching it’s been hovering 26. Close to 27.
Lior Gantz 7:51
J Darrin Gross 7:52
Okay. And it. So I mean, the, you know, you look at that and you say it’s down, you know, what is that 10% Okay.
Lior Gantz 8:02
Yeah, from the highs.
J Darrin Gross 8:04
Okay. And all things considered that seems like a not not a horrible place to be considering what’s what’s taking place. My my concern and I think that one of the challenges for really understanding what does that mean when you have all of this governmental interaction with the supporting of the markets and the kind of propping up the markets? How do you take a look at that and sort through that? Is there a, is there any kind of a sense of a false market there? That’s, that’s, you know, if the government doesn’t continue supporting it, that it that it collapses or is it or is there a weight given or help me understand how you, somebody that studies us day in and day out, looks at that and views it.
Lior Gantz 9:00
So that is literally the question of questions that is on everybody’s minds, you know, from the retail investor to the hedge fund manager, Warren Buffett, everyone is literally trying to understand if this market is what we call artificial, if it’s if it’s fake. And if it’s fake, what’s the real price? And if it’s not fake, how am I getting it wrong? Why do I think it’s fake? And it’s not. So the first thing you want to look at is earnings.
Today’s when you buy an index, or the when you buy shares of the Dow Jones, or shares the s&p 500 points, the s&p five etc. What you’re buing is a collection of companies and now you own a piece of them. And the first thing you do when you buy a company, if it’s a private company, if it’s laundromat or a restaurant in your area. Whenever you look at earnings, what am I buying compared to what am I paying? Today, investors are paying some of the highest prices for stocks compared to the earnings that they make. But if you look at the alternatives to generating a return about 75%, the world’s bonds yield less than 1%. As an insurance broker, you obviously know that what insurance companies do are property and casualty insurance specifically or Warren Buffett even more specific because he came up with this is they they take all the premiums in advance, and then they have a float. Basically, this is money. That is that they need to keep on reserve in case their claims on it. But in the meantime, they get invested. That’s a float Where insurance companies investors flow. This is billions and billions dollars of your money, basically, that you paid. They may well retain it. But they for the meantime, after keeping in reserve, they get invested tax free. That’s how insurance companies become giants.
And usually, they don’t want to do the stock market, they do bonds. Now they can’t do bonds. Because you can’t generate a return, you’re getting less than 1%. Inflation is higher pension funds, same thing throughout history throughout the 1980s. The 10 year bonds so you lend Washington money for 10 years, you get 8, 9, 10 percent. In the 90s. It’s about 6 to 7%. In the 2000s. It’s about 4 to 5%. Still great returns overall for very low risk. Today. Zero. And so when you have this challenge, then stocks are just worth more companies are worth more you can pay more for companies if there is no other an alternative, because if the dividend yield of the s&p 500 is 300 or 400%, larger than the yield on the 10 year bond. You know, there’s a point where pension funds and sovereign wealth funds and hedge funds etc. They just stopped with that 6040 mentality because they were not earning anything on their bonds. So, this is one thing that is driving stock prices are much higher. Secondly, think about all of the real estate investors who cannot invest in hotels, casinos, construction of retail, all these you know, very troubled industries and they have to go towards stocks.
Now suddenly stocks you look at what they did in time before And they had a lot of their expenses offset and their expenses basically with the government. Government is paying their their salaries for the employees can lend and they can borrow money from the government to pay a lot of their expenses. So a lot of companies have adapted really quick talking about the multinational companies. And as you as well, pointing out, the s&p 500 is only 500 companies. The Nasdaq 100 is 100 companies in the Dow 30s 30 companies. So this is a collection of 630 companies. And most of Americans have nothing to do with these companies. They don’t work for these companies. They don’t own shares in these companies. 84% of the stock market of the s&p 500 etc, is owned by the top 1% of Americans. We say that again. 84% of the equities are owned by 1% of the people in America. So most Americans have, you know, they they don’t if the Dow is 30,000. That’s a that’s the annual salary. That’s the annual median median salary. For most Americans. It’s the median salary, basically, step. So if it takes you one year, to buy the doubt, that is an all time high right away in 1980. It took about 10% of that. So you could have bought 10 times more be part of the american enterprise system. today. It takes you a year. That’s, that’s insane. So that’s why you have this wealth gap. Why did this wolf gap happen? Why is there is there such an income gap?
One thing is education. When education is so expensive, there is a there’s a certain segment of the population that can never enter college and never go into college, high tech, etc. They’re stuck 30-40 years behind and industries that are getting either outsourced or optimized, or whatever else. And just they’re frozen, their salaries are going to be frozen, etc. So that’s one thing, education and the cost of education. Secondly, what you have in America is the financial system is predominantly handled by the Central Bank, in the central bank, this does not really touch Darrin. It can’t reach Darrin. It can lower interest rates, which indirectly in signal to Darrin and hey, maybe Darrin should, instead of rent, take a mortgage, and then that will fuel the real estate market. But they never touched the real thing. Whereas the government, it can come to Darrin and say, Hey, Darrin, want to buy a house? We’ll give you two years of tax breaks. That’s that’s touching you directly. And I’m not a not an American, and I’m not a political animal. So this is not a political action or something. But during the Obama years, the government was pretty much laid back on, on doing fiscal policy. They left everything up to the central bank. And the central bank wanted the baton, and to the government, but the government just didn’t take it. And so, after 2008, you lower interest rates. If you get over the hump, you get a lot of deficits because of this, but then government needs to start, you know, maneuvering the economy and it didn’t. Trump, on the other hand, is very proactive, maybe does a lot of mistakes. We’ll have to judge that, you know, a few years down the road, but he’s very active tax tax cuts, opportunity zones. You know, working on a trade deal with China. These are all things that touch the people and obviously people PPE, all the things that are happening right now, that’s the government and not just not just the central bank. That’s what you’re going to see going forward. It’s a marriage of doing both of these together. Because interest rates are already at zero. So like a big answer to your question is, there’s the real economy, or 54% of Americans are employed. That’s your small businesses, you know, mom and pops. And then there’s the rest. The rest are doing pretty well, because the central bank has created a situation where they have a lot of liquidity. This is very unusual for a crisis usually. And of course, it’s all the credit contracts, like you saw in 2008. Here, there’s the opposite. There’s all the credit in the world. So you know, companies can can even if they have lots, much lower earnings, they can borrow money at very low costs and get through the hurdle. This is the multinational company, the big company, the small companies, they have much more issues, they don’t have access to the debt market. And the credit markets, they have nothing to do with central banks. That’s why the government had to help them. Otherwise, you would have seen a collapse of small businesses, and just big business is buying them, and there’ll be even more gear than there is right now. And so that’s basically the the dual economy that we have, and have, on one hand, assets prices are totally elevated, because governments are telling you, hey, if you lend me money in 10 years, I’ll bring you back your principal but no interest. So that forces people to go into the stock market.
And then you have the real economy, which depends more on government stimulus, and it’s it’s not as open to all these advantages of cheap credit. It’s struggling. And that back and forth is what’s called causing riots and populism and everything else. Because people are saying, Hey, this is this is not fair. It’s not capitalism. I’m not enjoying the fruits of capitalism only, I’m only enjoying the two, you know, two rules and deciding what to eat for dinner. And I’m the sheep. So it’s fine. The two wolves have raised their hands and we’re in a, you know, democratic system and in a capitalistic free market, but I’m always losing. And so I don’t like it. So that’s where America is right now. And there are clear winners or losers to the system.
J Darrin Gross 19:41
Yeah, I think, you know, everything you talked about, I mean, I get it. It’s, I think it’s it’s frustrating for most of us that you know, support a free market. But yet you see the it’s kind of a bastardized market when you have the the government You know, pouring cash into it, he doesn’t allow the winners and losers like you would normally expect to tries to keep falsely falsely in some cases, you know, and maybe reward some with with additional liquidity to where they can have those opportunities down the road to take advantage of those opportunities when they come, but that that would, I guess, if you, if you, if everything was equal, the the people that have more capital probably had more capital to begin with, you know, in reserve, they were probably operated differently as opposed to the people that were, you know, sink or swim kind of a model there. So, when you when you assess a company, you mentioned talking about looking at earnings and stuff. How How are you in this market? Given this infusion of cash from from the government’s How do you reason through that because Without that, I think you could you could assess, you know, Company A versus Company B or make some sort of a determination. But, you know, there’s a lot of people talk about, it’s kinda like driving in fog lights on, you can’t see where you’re gone and everybody’s kind of in the same. You know, we’re how do you take a look at that and, and when you’re when you’re making a decision to invest? How are you sorting through this? The fog?
Lior Gantz 21:29
Sure. Okay, so there are industries that have really been affected by COVID-19. Those are real items, right? Hotel chains, casinos, cruise lines, hospitality, hospitality, oil companies, tourism, to the airline industry. Okay. So you put all these in one basket, and then within that basket, you look for very specific things, and I can touch on that. So those are the real casualties. amount of in the food industry, you know companies like that, put them in one batch, and in retail, in malls, etc. Let’s put them in one batch. And they are basically whatever is sporting companies, whatever is really impacted either buying government restrictions, literally the government telling you you can’t operate this business or you have to operate within really crazy restrictions, cinemas, etc. Put them in one basket, let’s touch upon them later, then you have the ones that are thriving. Once this is like the government telling you all eliminate your competition for you. You know, I mean, there will be no retail stores online will go big. For example, Amazon, right. So, these are the two companies and then these are two extremes, those that are being victimized, those that are being being benefited, and then there’s in the Middle, all the companies that are sort of chugging along in terms of they haven’t been too much impacted from the bad side, too much for the for the upside.
What most investors are currently doing is that they’re trying to buy a company at x and a few weeks or a few months later just sell it for a higher price. And that model, it works until it doesn’t work. In other words, there’s there’s a top somewhere for the price. I don’t do that. For the most part, I avoid trying to buy a company for x and gambling, we’re speculating that somebody else will pay more for it in the future. What I’m trying to do is look for a company that I buy an x because I can see the earnings are currently pretty good or that I think it they’ll they’ll come back to normal real soon, and its prices cheap compared to the growth of the company going forward. And therefore what I care about is the cash flow this business will generate in the coming years and decades to come and not, then I buy one at one price and I can sell it a few weeks later and another price. And so that’s my model to begin with, because people have to realize the price appreciation is only 40% of historical returns to the stock market. The additional 40% is dividend distributions. And then the additional 20% is what we call buybacks or share buybacks that companies that are there instead of using their capital to distribute the dividend are basically telling you will buy more shares of our own company will will close the pool of shareholders and you will own more of the company tax free. Okay, so that’s just a bit. That’s some points. This is even better than a dividend.
Okay, so now that we’ve done that, we want to look at companies that are almost a monopoly in their industry companies that have very few competitors, either because they operate in a very tricky industry. In other words, it’s hard to compete. Even if you raise the capital, you won’t be able to come in. So they either are operating with very low, very thin margins. And therefore, if you try to compete with them, you’ll probably get eaten alive. Or they have a special relationship with a government or some sort of a regulator that it’s hard to compete with. Or they have a lot of brand loyalty. And it’s hard to shift the trend towards a new company.
Or that they’re one of the dominators or two or three dominators and no one else can get in. It’s very hard to get in and that would be because of economies of scale, for example, other companies will have higher costs. If you can find those types of companies that have what I call a moat, something around their business that makes it very hard for others to compete with, then you have a chance at finding something that will be index. Because otherwise, it is pretty much a certain that if you just find index fund, and you wait at least a business cycle, so at least seven years or more, you will start seeing how consistent the returns are. In the past 100 years. The s&p 500 has returned 8.3% a year but only on four calendar years out of 100 it actually close to you. Listen that 8.3% average. In other words, most it’s like having one hand in in boiling water The other hand and ice, if you combine it, it will probably have a nice feeling to it, but both of your hands are, or one is having froze whites and ones, you know, I mean you know, it’s, it’s, it’s in hot water. So you have to realize that over the long term, the American Enterprise is doing very good, you’re gonna make a fortune betting on American companies. But if you knew how to find companies that even grow faster than the index, then you have something unique.
93% of investors underperform the index and they should just invest in index, and they should probably double down or pilot more after a huge correction. For example, what happened in March that would be an amazing buying opportunity. And for the rest of the people that have a succinct way of understanding businesses can outperform that now over the long term, if you invest for 30 years, the difference between earning 8% a year and 12% is mean over one or two years, it’s it’s almost a negligence. It’s few thousand dollars depending on how much you your risk, but over a 30 year period when you compound that as an insane difference. So that’s where you have to figure out, am I capable? Do I have the time? Or do I need to offset this to somebody else? How do I do this? And that’s, that’s basically the business. So one, competitive advantages. That’s the main way to find a phenomenal business. And then if it’s a complex of knowing the industry, knowing this knowing that understanding the books, the numbers, it that is what being an investor is it’s a profession. Many people do not see it as a profession and And therefore many people lose a lot of money in the stock market.
J Darrin Gross 29:06
No, I think everything you you touched on there, I was kind of surprised you mentioned that only 40% of the returns is through price appreciation. Is that is that true even over the longer haul? Or is that
Lior Gantz 29:20
That is true only in the longer haul? day to day? No. I don’t. I can’t tell you what will happen from now until right. But over the hundred years that they did the study 40% comes from dividends 40% from the appreciation of the price and 20% from you know, earnings with buy backs.
J Darrin Gross 29:49
Well, that’s that’s interesting.
That’s great. Hey,
Lior Gantz 29:53
you may find that study online.
J Darrin Gross 29:56
No, I appreciate it. I want to ask you quick. I know you’re You’re a fan of gold. Can you speak to gold as to how it’s held up and give a little perspective on gold?
Lior Gantz 30:09
Sure. Today I’m a big fan of only a fan. Gold is trading at an all time high. And more importantly, than gold trading at an all time high, which is amazing. And, you know, if you go to our website, for example, for free shipping, you click on that top menu, you’ll see special reports. Lots of them have to do with gold. So If you don’t know why gold is important. As a part of your portfolio, you can definitely download some of those and also go to wealthissues.com/goldplaybook, which is a special report we created for your listeners. That’s a very comprehensive manual on investing going slower.
Okay, so gold is also it’s almost like a mirror of other things that are happening in the economy and the most important thing for gold That investors like to own it, when the interest rates that they can get either intervene by buying bonds is negative. So, let me say that again. If you currently want to do the safest thing in, in finance the traditionally you go and you purchase a and you lend Washington money for 10 years. The 10 year bond is the barometer for all the other assets in the world. Okay, that is, you know, whoever you ask, any professional investor, he will tell you the bare meter is the 10 year bond. So today the 10 year bond is yielding point five of a percent. In other words, if you lend Washington a million dollars, you’ll get point 5%. So that’s $5,000 of interest, a year, million dollars and then you have to duck inflation, inflation is a point and a half. Therefore, in real terms, you are losing $1,000 every year. On on, on this transaction, you are lending money at real negative rates when that happens, gold soars historically.
So that is exactly what’s happening right now the 10 year bond right now, in real terms. So whatever the nominal yield that you see on when you when you’re quoted online, minus the CPI, the consumer price index is the lowest it’s ever been. It’s point zero, it’s minus 1%. And in that kind of environment, there’s a lot of institutions that say, I am not going to just lose money, not going to lend money to Washington, knowing that I’m losing money. I’ll just find gold. And that’s what’s happening right now. And that’s my goal. There’s over $2,000 an ounce. And it will continue on doing what it’s doing, if there’s no change in that, and to me, it looks like there’s not going to be any change because the chairman of the Federal Reserve central bank is saying we are probably done raising interest rates for a few years. And so if they if interest rates are going to stay the same, I think inflation is even going to go up a little bit and rates are going to go even more negative.
Secondly, you have $1 bear market that has just started two months ago after 10 years of a bull market. Now the dollar what is it what is $1 bull market $1 bear market, a dominant bull market is if the dollars value relative value is rising compared to a basket of other leading currencies, the Euro, the yen, the Canadian, the Australian, the Swiss, the Hong Kong, etc. And it was beautiful. 10 years bull Market from 2010. It just broke down below. That was that support line that 10 year support and it’s in a bear market. dollar bear market is the most important financial event or dollar bull market is the most one financial terms, so many other things, because the dollar is the reserve currency that everyone uses. And all bear markets historically are six to seven years long. And so if we just started one then has insane repercussions, or commodity prices and you’ve seen in the last two months, or three months, that’s Silver’s price has gone up 100% that’s the smaller precious metal, the one that’s much more correlated or inversely correlated with the dollar. So you’ve seen phenomenal returns, or gold, silver, gold stocks, silver stocks, some of the stocks that we’ve profiled in our own portfolio are up over 100% Three, four months in the newsletter. So that’s what happens when you have a bull market, in commodities specifically in the mining sector.
J Darrin Gross 35:12
I appreciate you taking us through that the precious metals are I know they they have that are there times when they’re more sought after and it sounds like the way you described it now is definitely a time to make certain you have some in your portfolio. Lior if we could, I’d like to shift gears here for a second. As I mentioned to you before, I’m by day I’m an insurance broker. And I work with my clients to assess risk and do some risk management. There’s a couple of strategies we typically consider. We first look to see if we can avoid the risk. If that’s not a possibility, can we minimize the risk and when that’s not an option, then we look to see if we can transfer the risk and that’s what an insurance policy is. And I like to ask my guests if they can identify what they consider to be the biggest risk grand. for clarification, I’m not necessarily looking for an insurance related answer. You can apply this however you you feel if you want to look at your your business, your clients business, however you want to frame the question is up to you. But with that, if you’re willing, I’d like to ask you, Lior Gantz, what is the biggest risk?
Lior Gantz 36:39
`So I think COVID-19 is changing a lot of habits that people have some habits changed faster for certain people, some habits have not changed and some habits are slowly starting to change. And it’s very important to see that you’re not kind of touch with what’s happening. In other words that you don’t think that the way that you’re being changed by COVID-19 is the way that your clients are being changed by COVID-19. Therefore, you will take your business one way because that’s what personally is happening to you your own personal experience was your, your clients are, are looking at a different route to go forward and you’re going to lose them to competition. So the biggest risk right now is not understanding how your client has changed if it changed, and I think that’s really important for people to to stay on top of now, if you’re an employee, which most people are, your client is your boss, you need to see if he’s changed. If his business is more vulnerable, you should look at moving to a different business. His business is full of problems, but he also has a way to get through it, then you can bring a lot of value by solving problems and you can move ahead in the company. So just think of that, understand that everyone right now is experiencing either multiple problems or other experiencing a boom, because basically the government has benefited if you want to be part of that, be part of that. In other words, go with companies that and with industries that have a huge tailwind or go to the victims because you’re going to have opportunities to make a huge significant significant impact on them. Because they need so many new ideas and some fresh solutions. So either or, but just know that this is a phenomenal time to show your value that is the key point. Just think of the experiment that no business would have ever taken to close down or to put all the employees home. These are unheard of. And they’ve happened now. So you have to be unconscious that and that is the biggest risk losing the mindset of your clients because he’s changing you’re no longer understand what he wants and what he needs.
J Darrin Gross 39:30
Now that’s well put, and I think it’s a good reminder for people to recognize there is an opportunity here and in every crisis, there is an opportunity and it’s up to you to find that and and be the solution there. So that’s great. Um, Lior, Where can the listeners go if they’d like to learn more or connect with you?
Lior Gantz 39:51
Wealthreserchgroup.com. The homepage, you can sign up for the newsletter that’s literally like the best way to stay in touch with whatever I am doing.
J Darrin Gross 40:02
Got it. Lior, I can’t say thanks enough for taking the time. I’ve enjoyed talking with you again, learned a lot and I hope we can do it again soon.
Lior Gantz 40:13
Thank you, sir.
J Darrin Gross 40:14
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