Michelle Bosch 0:00
The flipping of the land is a J O B because if you don’t not send letters if you are not selling, you are not going to have income coming in unless you sold a chunk of those properties, you know, on notes, but even that income is going to come to an end. You know, when they pay off the note that passive cash flow comes to an end as well. So, so it’s, we call that you know, the land flips for cash, we call them one time cash, the notes we call them temporary cash. And you know, the single families and apartment buildings we call that forever cash that’s pretty much it can sit on that asset, you know, for as long as you want to. And you know, if you’re operating it at a good you know, in a good way it’s going to continue to spit out cash flow for you and I mean, hopefully for for many generations to come.
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J Darrin Gross 1:08
Welcome to Commercial Real Estate Pro Networks CREPN Radio. Thanks for joining us. My name is J Darrin Gross. This is the podcast focused on commercial real estate investment and risk management strategies. Weekly we have conversations with commercial real estate investors and professionals who provide their experience and insight to help you grow your real estate portfolio.
Today, my guest is Michelle Bosh. She and her husband are real estate investors, entrepreneurs. They have multiple businesses and they have taken businesses multiple businesses they’ve built from scratch to seven and eight figure income revenue streams. And their business platforms include land auctions, rental portfolios, they’ve all authored a an Amazon number one bestseller called Forever Cash. And also, they host together the podcast Forever Cash. And Michelle also hosts the podcast In Flow. And in just a minute we’re going to speak with Michelle about forever cash. But first a quick reminder, if you like our show CREPN Radio, there are a couple things you can do to help us grow and grow the audience. One you can subscribe, like and share. And also don’t forget, you can leave a comment we’d love to hear from our listeners. Also, if you want to see how attractive our guests are, be sure to check out our YouTube channel and that’s at Commercial Real Estate Pro Network on YouTube. Also when you do that if you would consider subscribing that also helps grow the reach of our program. With that I want to welcome my guest Michelle Welcome to CREPN Radio
Michelle Bosch 2:58
Thank you so much for having me, it’s such a pleasure to be here with you from coming from nice, sunny Phoenix, Arizona, which in a few days is going to turn into 109 degrees. So we’ll see. But thank you so much for having me.
J Darrin Gross 3:14
I’m delighted to have you and I’m looking forward to our talk. Before we get started, if you could share with the listeners a little bit about your background.
Michelle Bosch 3:23
Yeah, absolutely. So I am actually an immigrant from Honduras. I came here to the US in 1995. My husband is also an immigrant from Germany in 1997. We came here to study get our MBAs and we did pretty much what you know, you’re supposed to be doing good. We got jobs in corporate America that, you know, luckily, we’re sponsoring our green cards. But after a little bit of that, you know, two, three years of that we were deeply unfulfilled, we found ourselves with, you know, no fulfillment, no freedom. And definitely our paychecks did not match the level of energy and effort that we were putting into our jobs. But we can lead Go with those jobs because our permanent residency dependent on those.
So we started looking for something you know to do on the side a side hustle. um you know, my family back home owns commercial real estate and I thought well you know, perhaps this would be a thing to you know start with and we actually didn’t start with commercial we looked at a single family home that we wanted to basically rehab. It was a Junker here in Phoenix Arizona and being the immigrants that we are we found ourselves a little bit way over our heads in terms of we had no idea how to estimate repairs. You know on foundations on a kitchen on our roof. You know, no real expertise and managing a crew. It’s not that we had bad credit we just had no credit and and so there’s a series of things that you know, after having that very first Junker under contract we thought okay, you know, real estate it is, I know it’s worked for my family. My family has been able to create forever cash, you know, passive cash flow from it now. For years, but we probably need to start with something that, you know, is easier for us that we can wrap our minds around.
And we stumbled across something very interesting Darrin, and that is here in the US. There is such a thing as being able to lose your property to delinquent taxes. And I found about tax liens and tax deeds. And I remember going to a tax auction out in California. And needless to say, it was incredibly competitive. It was like being in a shark infested tank. But what I noticed was that a lot of the properties that were coming, you know, for, for sale, you know, there at the auction where vacant land was vacant, vacant pieces of land. And it occurred to me that if people had already, you know, checked out from these properties, because they have to be delinquent for five years in the state of California, in order to be able to be sold at tax deed auction, that people were probably checking out mentally and emotionally from these properties way, way earlier. And so we decided to go ahead and reach out to, you know, sellers or owners of vacant land we perfected a letter or you know, in a method where we could buy these properties for five to 25 cents on the dollars. Because we’re not looking for motivated sellers we’re looking really for non wanters. And we’re able to quickly turn around and sell those for 60 80 you know 100% of market value. We sell in one of two ways, we either sell for cash, you know, for a quick wholesale, that would be something you know, 60 70% of market value and if we sell for 100% of market value, we we sell them using seller financing, where we become the bank and therefore, we create a note and we have residual, you know, cash flow monthly cash flow from a property that for example, we bought for $1,000 that we sell for $10,000 and that where we can get you know, $9,000 being paid over a period of five years in monthly installments of 150 to 200. dollars, and one property doesn’t sound as, as attractive. But when you have two to 300 loans of those, you know what I mean? We were able, you know, over a course of, you know, several years, you know, once we perfected our methodology to really put the pedal to the metal do over 4000 flips, create $70,000 worth of passive cash flow. That became an eight figure business. And we’ve continued to do that to this day. However, you know, as as we have grown as investors in the US people, our, I would say, our sophistication when it comes to investing has also you know, grown.
So then we found ourselves in 2009, here in Phoenix with a ton of liquidity from cash profits from the land, from the passive cash flow from the notes on the land, and we could buy properties for $50,000 single family homes and rent them for 900 to $1,000. And so we started doing that here in Phoenix and we did it and you know, to other markets, and kind of been, you know, really wrap our hands around how to operate, you know, single family homes really, really well remotely because we’re doing it, you know, into other markets other than Phoenix. And, and we, you know, we came about to almost 50 rentals. And, and we thought well 2015 then came around and we thought, how can we start looking instead of one door at a time, you know, so that we can continue to build this passive cash flow this what we call forever cash. And instead of looking at one door at a time, how can we start looking at, you know, 100 doors at a time and that’s when we started, you know, looking into multifamily. We bought our first 90 units in Louisiana and, and then 94 units in North Carolina and then 147 units in Oklahoma City.
So those are the three markets we’re we’re in multifamily. And I think, you know, that’s pretty much you know, in essence What you know, my story is, which is very similar probably to many of your listeners who find themselves either in a corporate job or in some kind of lifestyle, where they’re not fulfilled where they have no freedom and where their paycheck does not equate, you know, the time and effort that you’re putting in that that was pretty much us It came out of, you know, I would say a cosmic four by four of pain and discomfort from being 100% traveling every single week of the year, you know, I mean, because we’re both consultants, and not seeing each other and not having so much to you know, show for it because we were living the American Dream by having payments on our cars on our house, on our laundromats on our sofa on our bed frame. I mean, I’m pretty much everything you know what I mean? And, and, and yeah, that’s real estate has been and specifically land has been the cornerstone of our wealth. We continue to do it to this day. And it’s it’s It’s a little bit of a sophisticated strategy I would say that we’ve been using now over the years and that is we create a lot of cash flow and cash profits for the land. And then we ask, you know, allocate that cash and park it into multifamily now. Because the benefit of multifamily is that all the active income that I generate on the land flips I’m able to feel that income with depreciation from the multifamily you know what I mean? So I feel like I get to you know, have a cake and eat it too. So it’s it’s, it’s like the best of both worlds. So yeah, that’s that’s that’s kind of a story.
That’s how we started it was I think, incredible. Like I said, dissatisfaction but having a little bit of immigrant disadvantage, but also immigrant advantage, zero fear hard work and seeing opportunities where others probably would have missed it, you know, specifically on the land side because now, you know, now we we teach others how to do that as well. And so the land has become something that has given You know, the four freedoms that I think every entrepreneur and investor is looking for, which is freedom of time, freedom, money, freedom of relationships, and freedom of purpose. Because now I’m, you know, on a mission to affect, you know, 1000 families in in a positive way, with a very simple method that we’ve been using now for almost 18 years, you know, to flip land. So, so yeah, so it’s, it’s, you know, as you grow you, your sophistication, basically, in terms of the asset class has grown for us. So, it’s,
J Darrin Gross 11:34
Yeah, that’s a very impressive story. I mean, come in here with, you know, essentially no relationships, no kind of a base. I always am impressed and I do I do find that I think somebody that’s willing to come to this country, or anything seeking opportunity is just really it’s kind of the the backbone of what you know the melting pot it was made America, America and So I love to hear that and appreciate you sharing that with us. I want to go back to you know, you mentioned when you guys first came here and you were working a corporate job and you had everything financed. I mean, I think that’s the the thing that I think is so easy to do in America is, you know, you can get everything on terms. To where, basically you can I forget what people say it’s something about renting the lifestyle to impress people you don’t know, or, you know, something.
Michelle Bosch 12:32
I’ve heard that expression. Yeah.
J Darrin Gross 12:34
You know, and and I’m kind of curious. So was there an awareness that that was that you were doing that or is that just basically kind of caught up in that because to break from that and to get to where you’re at now. I mean, obviously, there were a lot of steps and I want to talk with you a little bit more about the the marketing on your land, because you mentioned the systems that you put in there, but just the the mindset, I guess You know going from was it more of that you use recognized you What more did you realize where you were at? I think that’s kind of the thing. I don’t know that everybody realizes they’re in this, this pot and you know, they keep looking at one more finance contract or it’s just, you know, another contract and other payment, but that not understanding that the weight of those payments Did you did you guys understand the weight of those payments,
Michelle Bosch 13:25
I think we understood the weight of the of the payments, but at the same time, it’s what everyone else is doing. It’s what is expected. You go to college, you get a job and you you know, you get married, you buy a home and you start making payments on everything pretty much, you know, starting at the bottom of the food chain, I think what was incredibly, I think a pivotal moment for both Jack and I was, you know, I was I was I went to school here at Thunderbird and Robert Kiyosaki actually the author of the Rich Dad, Poor Dad. You know better selling book he lives here in town and back then, you know, when I was a graduate student there, he had a some kind of a relationship with the university where a group of students were helping him develop and market and brand and package his Cash Flow Game. And I remember you know, me being friends with one of those because I wasn’t part of that group, but I remember going to, you know, a friend’s home and he telling us all about it and you know, what he was working on and even giving us a copy of the book and us reading that book and realizing oh my gosh, we need to move you know, from you know, the, you know, the employee, you know, quadrant into ideally as fast as possible into a business and even from a business into the investor side, you know, as quickly as we can. And I knew it also from home you know, that that that was the way to go. That was a way to really create, you know, cash flow that is truly truly passive because Because when, when I was young, my father passed away, but two years prior to him passing away, um, he had made a an investment in a commercial property back home. And it wasn’t his hot, you know, hot shot, you know, lawyer profession, what kept my mother and I afloat to this day we own this property. It was that investment in that commercial property. And so how passive can it be that a person is not there physically, but continues to take care of you financially?
So I knew from my background, you know, from my family that I had experienced this firsthand that it was possible that would, you know, what he was describing on that book, that, that that was, you know, that that’s real, that it’s not just ink on a page. And, and I think it took my husband a little bit of a longer time, because he comes from Germany, from a society where, you know, government is there to take care of you, you know, I mean, you know, in a way and so on and so forth. And, and I come from Third World country where there’s nothing, you know, nothing that is gonna prevent you from going down the drain and circling the drain pretty much. And, and so I think it was it took him a little bit but once he got it, he understood it. And I think it hit home for him when 2001 came around, and we had already actually, you know, jumped on the green card process with his company because we were doing it in parallel. And then, you know, September 11 comes around and his company is going from, you know, 15,000 employees to 7000 in one day, and we’re hoping, oh my gosh, that he’s not one because our green card process depends on that job. You know what I mean? So I think for him, it really hit home, you know, within a short period of time. I you know, I was going to school in 1999 2000 is when we’re exposed to the book 2001 you know, It hits him. And we’re like, okay, we need to put the pedal to the metal You’re right, and let’s start doing something. And I think it was, again, it was it was a, you know, a rude awakening, but based on the circumstances where you’re like, you know, on the spot with your back against the wall, that you’re next, you know, we need to find a job within the next 60 days or we have to leave the country, you know what I mean? That is willing to sponsor that you know, that working visa and that green card you know, status and paperwork and so on and so forth.
So yeah, so it’s it’s a little bit of being with your back against the wall with a little bit of experience from you know, what I had, you know, had in my family happened to us, you know, firsthand that brought us to the point where like, okay, you know, we know that we need to break up the cycle that it is possible, because I’ve seen others possible in a much smaller scale, of course, and we have done right now, but still, you know what I mean? I’m my mother as an elementary teacher would have never been able to afford a private schooling for me, send me to the US. To study, you know what I mean? It’s, it’s all been the results of that one decision that he made, you know, two years prior to invest. So it’s been for me now, you know, I see it as like, wow, it’s a it was a legacy for the unborn because I wasn’t even born back then when he purchased it, and now I’m on that same mission to create that legacy of prosperity for others for families, you know, for generations to come for people on my never know, but for some reason, you know, run into us now. And, and if we can share a little bit about what we’ve learned and how we’ve done it, we, it would be, I would have said it would have been a life well lived.
J Darrin Gross 18:40
Yeah. Well, it’s amazing. You know, two things you said there one is the kind of serendipity of the fact that your father did make this investment and the the cash flow from that was able to provide, you know, your family existence and sounds like you’re able to live fairly well and that you’re able to you know, make your And do things.
Michelle Bosch 19:01
Yeah. I mean, even learning English right now to be talking to you, Darrin, because without going to a bilingual school or private school back home, I would have not even learned a second language. You know what I mean?
J Darrin Gross 19:10
Right. Right. Well, just the opportunities. I mean, again, and I don’t know that everybody. Well, I think so much of what I think people get without those kinds of experiences is kind of the here and now it’s all about money and how fast kind of spend the money kind of thing. But the fact that you had this, and then also that the Kiyosaki experience. I know I’ve read a couple of his books. I think my favorite that I’ve read was the I think it was The Cashflow Quadrant. Think that one really spoke to me talk about the box or an employee back, there it is. But to me, it just again, is that mindset shift from employee to an investor kind of thing and just that mentality thing there. So that’s it. That’s awesome. I appreciate you sharing that with us.
Michelle Bosch 20:02
You can’t You can’t start a business with an employee mindset, you know that that’s something different also, it’s probably, you know, a different discussion but that’s, you know, you’re, you’re gonna have to give it your all, you’re gonna have to, you know, say yes to everything at the beginning, you’re going to have to, you know, work 80 hour weeks, you know, now so that you can live later, like, others are not willing to right now and so on and so forth. But, um, but yeah, it was, um, we were doing it anyways, you know, working for someone else. So what was the difference? You know?
J Darrin Gross 20:38
Sure. Sure. So I want to ask you, so you, you’re in multiple asset classes. You started off you did your first single family flip and it sounds like that there were some challenges there. You you found your way
Michelle Bosch 20:52
We actually didn’t we actually didn’t go through with a Darrin. We chickend out because, you know, we had our inspection period and we thought oh my god. We’re way over our heads, we chickened out and backed out of that.
J Darrin Gross 21:03
Okay? But you didn’t stop.
But you didn’t stop there. So, so then Okay, so you find your way to land. And you you recognize it’s not about getting to the courthouse, it’s getting to the people before property shows up at the courthouse. I understood, you know, and you mentioned there that you you perfected a letter. And I’m just curious about if you can share with us a little bit about maybe the first iteration and what you know, how long it took you to kind of work the kinks out to where your response was higher to where you you actually had a business what what kind of timeline was that?
Michelle Bosch 21:43
Oh, it was about three years, but um, but it was, but we had small successes such that you know, there were the carrot but was big enough to continue exploring it and both jack and I are similar in that once we put our sights into something And we see that it is possible to have a little bit of success that you know that that small success can translate into bigger explosive growth. It’s about you know, we’re both very perseverant. We’re complete Bulldogs when we like, decide that we’re going to, you know, perfect and master something. It’s, it’s, uh, we’re complete diehards. So So that’s, that’s, that’s one thing i think that you know helped us figure out the land and and really, you know, go through many many iterations of that letter where we would change you know, split testing, where you change you know, the first sentence award in the first sentence and then you send you know what you had before and you go and test that and then you, you see which of those wins and then that winner one you change another sentence and you know what I mean? And it took a little bit at the letter plus the process in the background. You know how to buy it, how to sell it. We became students of online marketing, you know, to be able to sell our, you know, our land online. So it was a process and eventually, you know, we came across a model. That is not something that we invented, but we came across a big auction company that was auctioning houses back in, I would say 2002 or three here in Arizona, and we thought, wow, if they’re auctioning houses, we could probably auction our our properties because we had no problem buying the properties. To this day, you know, we’re able to buy for five to 25 cents on the dollar very easily for every 750 to 1000 letters that we send, we get anywhere between six and 15 callbacks. And it’s people that got just really don’t want their property at all anymore. It’s not they’re not just motivated and just don’t want it. And for many reasons, maybe, you know, maybe we’re dealing with the heirs and the heirs live someplace else. Maybe they decided to buy two pieces of property at some point. where they were going to retire and they bought one here in Arizona and one in Florida. And they decided to, you know, retire here in Arizona. But now the Florida one is, you know, they don’t have their kids don’t want it, or divorce or time circumstances, you know, they need money for some reason. And they’re willing to, you know, lead gold property for very, very little money. So, so yeah, I took it, you know, between the buying and the selling, it took us a little bit. And on the selling side, like I said, we became, you know, students of online marketing. And then we came across this other model where we could flush 200 properties, properties pretty much in one day, I were buying, you know, having one a quarter buying about 80 properties a month. And with a team of 20 30 people at that point, you know, it was it was a business it is it continues to be a business right now. It’s just that now we have so much more technology, so much more automation that goes into that I’m able to do what I was able to do back then was a much smaller team. And I In Yeah, the investments in technology and in, I would say in, in mentorship in order to us be able to grow as business owners, you know, and get out of that employee mindset. Because it’s not just hard work, you know, the mindset, it’s also working on strategy for your business, for growth and so on and so forth. And building and recruiting amazing team that is there, you know, to really make decisions like you would, if they are aligning with your vision, and they’re aligning with your core values. I mean, a lot of those things I didn’t understand when I started, you know what I mean, but I understand now, and, and we’re able to continue to do it with a lot of ease and grace, you know, and, and not have a J O B, even though the flipping of the land is a J O B because if you don’t not send letters, if you are not selling, you are not going to have income coming in unless you sold a chunk of those properties. You know, But even that income is going to come to an end, you know, when they pay off the note that passive cash flow comes to an end as well.
So, so it’s, we call that, you know, the land flips for cash, we call them one time cash, the notes, we call them temporary cash. And, you know, the single families and apartment buildings, we call that forever cash, that’s pretty much you can sit on that asset, you know, for as long as you want to. And, you know, if you’re operating it at a good, you know, in a good way, it’s going to continue to spit out cash flow for you. And I mean, hopefully for for many generations to come because that’s what we want, you know, for Sophia, you know, I’m able to stand on the shoulders of my father, and I want her to stand on, you know, jack and my shoulders and, you know, grow this and continue building upon that for many generations to come.
J Darrin Gross 26:49
No, I love that. That’s, that to me, really is the power of real estate. Yeah. What I just ask you real quick, the, you know, the So you said you perfect system in a particular asset class, raw land, right? Yeah. So many people get content or just they they kind of keep the blinders on and they stay in their lane, if you will. And there I find it kind of the rare few that are able to recognize opportunities in multiple asset classes or be able to shift gears or recognize the opportunity. Can you speak a little bit to what it was that allowed you to say, Okay, we’ve got this going on. Let’s see what else we can do. Because you mentioned that you went to single family local, and then subsequently the multifamily.
Michelle Bosch 27:39
Yeah, I think in part, it’s the entrepreneurial bug, in that entrepreneurs by nature are incredibly curious. And, and that if you add that to, you know, a desire for always a bigger future check in our eternal optimists and, you know, we’re always of the belief that our Future is gonna be better than our past. And so in part was, I think it was it’s that in and also, like I said recognizing that one, that one asset class doesn’t entirely do the job for your long term vision, you know what I mean? And, and that you will have to, you know, start looking elsewhere at some point but it is incredibly important to, you know, when you’re starting because there’s so many ways to skin this cat in real estate to really focus otherwise, you do suffer, you know, the risk of shiny Penny syndrome, and completely diverting your your energy and having movement a lot, a lot, a lot of busy movement that doesn’t bring you forward. So I would say for a period of almost six years, we really focus exclusively on mastery for the land, you know. And what I mean by my mastery is like 4000 flips Like iteration after iteration after iteration because that repetition you know the scale allowed us repetition we you know that is an asset class because we’re able to you know buy so many and sell so many quickly that it that scale gives you the benefit of repetition and with repetition comes what I call mastery you know, I mean you cannot master something you can’t repeat like you know you can do I don’t know how many homes a year and if you’re doing I don’t know five or six because it’s a side hustle because you have a main you know, your main job I don’t know if that’s you’re gonna get a lot of mastery from it you’re gonna definitely learn but if you have thousands and thousands of transactions you know what that skill allows us repetition mastery. And once you have mastery in that one lane like you call it, you know, it’s like having a PhD and making money. And you can have you know, you can find a head to the horse that lane, because that lane is perfected, you know what I mean? And you can start, you know, focusing on Okay, where else can I innovate? Or where else can I accelerate my growth or my cash? Now my passive cash flow. And for us, you know, we, we kind of lifted our heads in 2009 after the 2008 recession, and everyone around us was losing their shirt and we’re like, oh my gosh, we continue flipping land. And, you know, let’s go now it makes sense to buy $50,000 homes put in there, you know, 5 10 thousand repairs, and go rent them before you know, prices here in Phoenix, where are wages it really didn’t make sense. So, um, we just, you know, kept discipline to what we knew how to do best, you know, and we specialize only in three types of properties even in the land, you know, we don’t look at all kinds of land, either it’s got to be infill lots, or path of growth lots or recreational property that is no more than two hours away from a major city that is experiencing growth of some sort. You know I mean?
So you know in either way I would say for the first two types of property for the land my exit my buyer is a builder is a financial model you know buyer, you know, that has a financial mindset. And the third one is much more of a retail customer someone that wants to go and you know, hike, be able to go fishing here in the White Mountain Lakes area up in northern Arizona or wherever it is, you know, because we don’t do it just in Arizona. We now you do it across 17 states and very little competition, because the last thing people think about when you think about real estate is a piece of land, but we don’t specialize and you know, the million dollar you know, infill lot here in downtown Phoenix, you know, I’m talking there’s a residential subdivision, and there’s houses everywhere and there’s one infill lot. You know, I mean, that has been sitting there forever, or path of growth, you know, between here Phoenix and Tucson. These two cities will eventually You know, merge, you know, anything between here and there here in Las Vegas. And it’s not just in Phoenix, like, you can find that same dynamic in Texas, in North Carolina, and Florida. You know what I mean? You you find that same dynamic and many of the southern states, which we like to actually focus from the, you know, middle of the US south, so that we can market year round because it’s hard to market a piece of land. Um, when it’s under, you know, a few feet of snow. Right, right. Yeah.
J Darrin Gross 32:30
Yeah, I can appreciate that.
Michelle Bosch 32:33
J Darrin Gross 32:35
So and I guess the thing that I love that you shared there is just the kind of the mastering the one that was actually a cash flow vehicle. I mean, kind of like that, that that really was kind of the vehicle that gave you the opportunity
Michelle Bosch 32:47
That’s how we got out of the rat race with the land, you know,
J Darrin Gross 32:50
Right. And it wasn’t like you went from there and then you said, we’re going to go do Amazon stores or some but you stayed in real estate recognize that the real estate That there was a another and that you’re buying below the market. You mean you were aware of what was going on in the market, which I think a lot of awareness is really what you know, creates opportunity. I think that so often people are attracted to something with all the press and that’s at the height of the market, which is not necessarily the time to create an opportunity. Or, you know, it’s an opportunity for the seller, but maybe not necessarily for the buyer to create instant equity. I want to ask you, given the in Today is May 27 to 2020. We’re somewhere in the middle of this COVID crisis. States are reopening but the economy is taking a major hit. Before we we pressed record, we were talking a little bit and I’d like if you can kind of speak to how the different asset classes are performing in this time of economic uncertainty.
Michelle Bosch 34:03
So in the land space, like I was sharing with you, we cannot, that’s the land is selling like hotcakes. We cannot keep it long enough. And I think it’s partly possibly because people want to get out of their home in the city and have something to go and look forward to for a weekend without wearing a mask. And without, you know, any risk of infection. You know, we’re also seeing a lot of you know, financial buyers right now a lot of builders that were looking probably four times like now to go out there and buy so there’s an influx of also people looking for bargains out there. Um, and in, in so on the land. I continue seeing basically no difference in any if anything, there’s an improvement right now and even over the long term. What was our, you know, experience back in 2008 was that, you know, landed type of land that we specialize on is maybe lagging six months behind, you know, commercial and single family. And that we, if we see the effects, we’re going to probably see the effects that we saw back then. Which is we’re going to have to buy for lower, you know, and sell for lower, you know? But if you can buy for lower, you can sell for lower and still make, you know, 10, 20 $30,000 profits, you know, spreads because our typical spread is between 10 and $20,000 on a piece of land. And so we’re, we’re going to continue to be able to generate those on just perhaps, you know, instead of 10 to 20, maybe they become, you know, seven to $15,000. But it’s still I mean, it’s still a good deal. You know, from my perspective, and in on the on the single family homes. What we have seen so far is 100% collections, you know, on all three markets. We’re here in Phoenix, we’re in Cleveland, and we’re in Omaha, Nebraska and our single family home. 100% collection.
Um, and, you know, we, we anticipate that to remain that way if anything, maybe, you know, a slight decrease, but, I mean, we we are, if anything here the, you know, City of Phoenix is the only one where I could say, well, maybe some of you know, I’m gonna see some of my values drop, you know, in terms of you know, the, the properties, but we are not necessarily an investor is looking for appreciation when it comes to the single family when we started investing a single family in 2009. You know, we were looking at 1960s homes that are brick built that are not made out of the drywall, you know, or and, and that that, you know, there were brick built that we thought it families need to, you know, come together and live together in order to come out of an economic you know, situation that it needs to be strong walls a strong home. And so on and so forth. And so it was never with a mindset of like, Oh my gosh, you’re going to appreciate which they did, you know, four or five times of what we paid for them. And in some of the, you know, real estate that we bought here in Phoenix, we actually when we hit that, you know, I would say three, four years ago, we started selling some of that and you know, in selling a home that I bought for 50,000 I sold it for 200 and then when again and started buying the same home and Cleveland for 50 and in Omaha, Nebraska for 50 again, you know, I mean, sort of one sale of one home I was able to buy for and in other markets were basically there were at a different you know, cycle at a different part in the market. Yeah. And and so I predict that that will continue to happen. Like I said, I’m we had the appreciation and we would love it, but that’s not what we’re going for. We’re going for the cash flow. And on the multifamily side on the multifamily side, I have seen right now. You know, our property in Louisiana, North Carolina and Oklahoma City, what we have is anywhere between 90 and 96% collection rate. And it’s kind of normal to what we’ve experienced in the past without a pandemic without an economic downturn. And we’re pretty much in line where we’re at.
And I think the reason why is that in all, you know, in two of those three markets, at least in two of those three markets, we have a, what we call a cone of prosperity from the government in that I’m very close to in North Carolina to Fort Bragg. And I’m very close to Tinker Air Force Base and in Oklahoma City. And a lot of the tenant base basically is either military or retired military. And if I do have, you know, a percentage of people that is workforce, people that might lose their jobs. It’s It’s, it’s, it’s much smaller than if you weren’t in in other areas. You know what I mean? Because of that, we’ve been able to mitigate and we purchased those assets. With that in mind that if something was to happen in the economy that we would want to have a, a, we call it a, you know, a artificial cone of prosperity with a government agency with a government as an employer or a big employer like an Amazon or whatever, you know what I mean? I always look for such a, an economic cone of prosperity close by to the property where we’re going to be buying.
So um, but but it’s still you know, there I know that we’re probably getting out you know, gearing up to you know, the, your your risk mitigation and I you know, I can already start talking about that on all three, you know, asset classes, but specifically on their apartment side, you know, the BIGGEST RISK that we have right now is that for the percentage of the tenant base that is unemployed, or that has lost their job because it is worked for housing, we buy c properties and B neighborhoods you know, that that if they’ve lost their job and unemployment you know, kept gets cut down, that they might not be able to To make their rent payments, so though, that’s a big risk right there. Another risk is that you know, the economic recovery is longer than expected. And that therefore, you know, we are seeing having to carry, you know, a delinquency or a vacancy, you know, well right now not even a vacancy because we cannot evict So, so you know, that we’re carrying a delinquency for longer than we want to, you know, what I mean? And some of the measures that we’ve taken it, you know, in order to preserve cash is in the beginning we are funded in order to be able to have you know, well capitalized asset number one, but now we’ve we’ve pretty much you know, cancel any big CAP X project for all three properties. We stopped already immediately because we were coming to the point where we were going to have to make payments you know, cuz on two of those three properties, we we’ve syndicated the asset and it’s So we we stopped, you know, payments to our investors just out of precaution. And the properties have had amazing collection rates that I could have paid them. But I continue to hold on to that cash, because I want to have a little bit more time and visibility into what happens right now come July, August, you know what I mean, in terms of where we’re at, you know, with the economy where we’re at with unemployment and, and yeah, so those those are some of the things that we’re doing but we hope that by being a from an asset management perspective, a first in class community because that’s what we strive for, you know, when we come across a sea, you know, class acid in the neighborhood, we want to become the best. C there is such that there is a if there is an economic pressure, you know, that even people that are in a B property right now, that might be slightly nicer that when they have to downgrade that they’re going to downgrade into the next nicest C which would be us, you know what I mean? Um, so.
So that’s kind of how we’re going about doing that is just making sure that we’re well capitalized. I’m not excited about forbearance at all, I believe in making pay if I can pay my bills, pay my bills. And, and yeah, so now our conversation is starting to shift actually with, you know, our investors and into opportunities, because we know that there, there are owners and operators, large multifamily that bought in the last year, even within the, you know, last quarter of, you know, to 2019 that we’re expecting, you know, in forecasting in their models, rent increases, you know, 3 5 7 percent and now, those increases are not materializing. I mean, they are gonna leave and there’ll be opportunities out there for us to go and Again, just like we bought here in Phoenix back in 2008. This time we’re going to be buying large multifamily. So kind of positioning ourselves for that, you know, having that, you know, that conversation and opening that mindset to the investor that, you know, that wants to invest with us that, that this is the right time to buy, you know, when this happens, and even though everyone else is trying to sell and trying to get out that it’s okay to be a contrarian, but it’s okay to, you know, you have to stomach and go against the grain of what everyone else is doing, because we’ve done it before and it’s, it’s paid off tremendously. So, um, so that’s kind of where we’re at right now. Yeah.
J Darrin Gross 43:41
No, I appreciate you sharing that with us. The other risk, like I do like to ask people, you know, what they consider to be the BIGGEST RISK. Clearly, the, the, you know, the economic uncertainty we’re in, you know, is is it’s going to create some opportunities. I mean, I think that’s the one thing that’s always and I think your story is illustrated at well, is that, you know, when when, when there is a situation it’s not only a I mean it’s trouble for some but it’s opportunity for others that are well prepared. Yeah, it sounds like you’ve been able to take advantage of that. So I appreciate you sharing that. Well, you knocked out the the BIGGEST RISK question and I appreciate you doing that. Michelle, Where can the listeners go if they would like to learn more or connect with you?
Michelle Bosch 44:34
If you’re at all interested in learning about land, you can go to LandProfitFun.com because it’s fun to make money with land. And so land profit fun calm. You can also go to Michelle calm MichelleBosh.com. I’m sorry, MichelleBosh Bosch. And, yeah, from there, you can connect with me on Facebook. I’m on Facebook as Michelle Bosh, Instagram Michelle Bosh, official. And our podcasts, you know, Forever Cash, podcasts and the Inflow podcast.
J Darrin Gross 45:06
Got it. Well Michelle, I have enjoyed this immensely, and I can’t say thanks enough for taking the time to talk. I learned a lot, and I hope we can do it again soon.
Michelle Bosch 45:18
Absolutely. It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
J Darrin Gross 45:21
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